Michigan Church Carry

This is a discussion on Michigan Church Carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I like the idea that a couple of people have posted about discussing first what the official plans of the church are should any type ...

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Thread: Michigan Church Carry

  1. #46
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    I like the idea that a couple of people have posted about discussing first what the official plans of the church are should any type of violent encounter happen there, using whatever examples of other church violence you feel comfortable talking about. If the answer indicates that these issues have been discussed and that there is a plan to protect the congregation, the pastor may well be predisposed to grant you permission to carry.

    On the other hand, if the answer gives you the impression that the pastor would not look favorably on you carrying, I'd confirm that MI law does not provide for any criminal charges should you carry to church without permission - i.e. that the most that could happen should you be discovered is that you could be kicked out of the church. If that is the case, then you have a decision to make:

    1. Carry in some manner that will virtually guarantee you won't be made, so as to be able to protect yourself and your loved ones should the need arise. OR
    2. Choose to be unarmed at church in order to not break the rules of both the church & the state.

    I'm sure you want to do the "right thing" by asking your pastor (why else would you have posted your question otherwise, right?), but you have to ask yourself - is the "right thing" in this case to ensure the protection of yourself & your loved ones, or to follow the man-made rules of the state & the church?

    I know what I'd choose, but the decision is obviously up to you and you alone. The fact that you asked for input tells me that you are thinking about the choice seriously, and that whatever decision you reach will be the right one for you. And that's all that really matters...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Many won't like this answer, but if one wants to be obedient to the Word, the Bible, then he must obey the church authority in such matters. It might be the pastor or a board of some kind.

    However, the Bible is very clear that a member is to submit to the authority of the local church, as long as it is not in contradiction to clear commands or does not require one to sin.

    If the local church authority says No to CCW then either obey or find another church.

    The Bible does not say that you have to agree, but that you must submit. Otherwise you sin.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  4. #48
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    Many won't like this answer, but if one wants to be obedient to the Word, the Bible, then he must obey the church authority in such matters. It might be the pastor or a board of some kind.

    However, the Bible is very clear that a member is to submit to the authority of the local church, as long as it is not in contradiction to clear commands or does not require one to sin.

    If the local church authority says No to CCW then either obey or find another church.

    The Bible does not say that you have to agree, but that you must submit. Otherwise you sin.

    Regards,
    Jerry
    As others have noted, some interpretations of Biblical passages state that it is a sin not to protect yourself & your loved ones. So if you are one that believes this, isn't it no longer a sin to carry against the wishes of your church?

    Just so I'm crystal clear here - I am not & will not debate scripture here or anywhere else with anyone. My only point is that different people have different ideas about what various scriptural passages mean, and any single interpretation can be debated ad nauseam. Since this is not a place designated for that kind of debate, I'll go back to my original point - the OP has to determine for himself what the "right answer" is for him, be it through reflection, thought, prayer, or whatever other method he is comfortable with.

    I again wish him luck, as I know it is not an easy choice.
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    As others have noted, some interpretations of Biblical passages state that it is a sin not to protect yourself & your loved ones. So if you are one that believes this, isn't it no longer a sin to carry against the wishes of your church?

    Just so I'm crystal clear here - I am not & will not debate scripture here or anywhere else with anyone. My only point is that different people have different ideas about what various scriptural passages mean, and any single interpretation can be debated ad nauseam. Since this is not a place designated for that kind of debate, I'll go back to my original point - the OP has to determine for himself what the "right answer" is for him, be it through reflection, thought, prayer, or whatever other method he is comfortable with.

    I again wish him luck, as I know it is not an easy choice.
    [My only point is that different people have different ideas about what various scriptural passages mean, and any single interpretation can be debated ad nauseam. ]
    Not correct.

    People's ideas are not authoritative. It is the Scripture, and the command of Scripture is to obey those who have the rule over you. Hebrews 13:17

    Even if they are incorrect one is to obey as long as it is not to sin.
    Although the policy here, no doubt, is not to debate scripture when we are talking about what to do in the local church it is the Bible that is the ultimate authority. If one does not want to debate that subject then it should not be brought up.

    I have studied, and taught the Bible for over 25 years in a verse by verse manner. I have studied the writings of those normally considered to be among the greatest scholars in church history. There is no passage that says you have a right to carry in church against the directions of those in authority.

    The choices are either to obey or leave.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array Super Trucker's Avatar
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    Tell him you feel the need to carry to and from church, and it would be very irresponsible to leave a handgun unattended in a vehicle. And use some of the other suggestions also.

  7. #51
    Member Array ExSniper's Avatar
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    Just food for thought: Isn't God "in charge" at church? Didn't Jesus call the Temple (church building) My Father's House? If so, I would just check with God and see if it is okay to carry in "His House!" I did, and He said I could, so I do!

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    I believe my post still pertains to the OP, otherwise I wouldn't participate.

    Actually, Jerry, I agree with you that it is right to obey the church authorities. I am faced with a quandry, though, as the church we attend is the only church my wife will attend. I did attend another church without her for 9 long years, so it isn't a matter of her possibly changing her mind and going with me if I decide to go elsewhere. It's this church or none for her.

    So my choices are either 1) attend this church unarmed with her, 2) attend elsewhere armed but without her, or 3) continue to attend this church armed without asking the church authorities.

    Recognizing that my choice may be against the church authorities, I have made the decision, and accept full responsibility, to carry. It is the least undesirable choice of my three options. If you press me, I might admit it is against Biblical teachings. Yet if my wife is gunned down and never accepts God's teachings, is that worth obeying the church authorities 100%? To me, that would be like tithing on the little things, like spices, but ignoring the huge things, like concern for her soul. In my mind, it's not even a close call.

    I gave up trying to be perfect a long time ago. I'll take the hit for this one. It's small compared to a lot of other things I've done, and the stakes for her are far greater than me obeying the authorities in every tiny detail. At least now she is exposed to the Gospel every week. I have made the most loving decision I could, with her in mind. Rules are important, but sometimes love and concern for others trumps the rules, at least for me. I am entirely comfortable with that, so comfortable that I'll take that decision to eternity. And if I'm wrong, it will be settled in the next life. I've made my decision, and it's to protect my wife and do what I can to guide her toward God. For me, it is not as cut and dried as "obey or leave." If it is that simple for you, I am sincerely glad for you. But I reject being limited to those two options.

    Peace to you, Jerry. I am not attacking you.

  9. #53
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Hi Grady,
    I have no thought that you are attacking me. I never take or mean these things to be personal. We learn from one-another, and sometimes I have to change my positions.

    It is a quandary today considering the things you mention, and which have been brought up. Frankly, unless I had some reason to know or strongly believe that it was against policy to carry I would do so and not breach the subject. If the gun is well concealed who is to know or care?

    I carry and have never asked. There is no church policy regarding CCW, and it is not against the law. I once was involved in a thread such as this, and mentioned it to my Pastor. His response was that he would be glad that someone was in the back keeping an eye on who came through the door. (I am the head usher.) We left it at that. However, if he had asked I would have given an honest answer. If then he said not to do so, I would submit to that. I would rather be in a good church and not carry than to leave a good one for a lesser church where I could carry. My first priority is to be obedient to the commands and precepts of the Bible. I am willing to take my chances to do that.

    You also know that it is something that one must think through and determine the best course if shooting ever becomes necessary. For instance, in my church during SS there is a children’s SS class that would be immediately behind anyone who entered at the most used door. It would be the best course for me to kneel and move to the side slightly if it became necessary to use deadly force so that if I missed or the round completely penetrated, the children would not be endangered unnecessarily.
    Such a place as a church brings up many such problems considering the number of people who would be present, and the crowded conditions.

    As you no doubt know, it is so very important that husband, wife, and children worship and attend church together. Going to separate churches would not be an option for me. I would not carry if that was the only other option. In your case I don’t think those are the only options since no policy has been stated to your knowledge, if I understand what you said correctly. And I see no reason to bring it up.

    Each must make his own decisions, and if they are made with the best understanding, prayer, and sincerity that is about all we can do in our imperfections.

    I will say, as the same principle in another thread, that although a very few churches have experienced violence, the chances of such happening are 1 in many, many thousands if one considers the number of churches meeting each Sunday and the very few violent actions that have occurred. So one should balance the odds and consequences of whatever actions he takes. I personally would not leave a good church just because I could not carry when I consider the odds. Those odds are much less than the drive to church. But each must make his own choice.

    Have a good evening, and we’ll talk on another thread. That is if the mods don’t kick me off.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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