Michigan Church Carry

[Grandpa C]

As some of you know, in Michigan, you need to get permission from person in charge of your church to carry. I confronted my pastor today about getting permission. He told me he needed to think about it and talk with me later this week. He wants to know why I want to carry. I am 54, and just got my permit this month. What do I tell him?

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Joe R]

Find the news clippings of church shooting rampages in Texas and elsewhere. Let him read them. If that doesn't convince him, then you and him are obviously on two different worlds when it comes to this issue and my recommendation would be to go elsewhere.

[Cupcake]

First of all, welcome and Good luck. Maybe you could let him know that often after service, you like to go dining or shopping or hiking through the woods or whatever, and that you feel leaving it locked up in the car is irresponsible and the source of many a gun falling into the wrong hands. (That is my feeling anyway, and if a guy will steal a car, he's already a felon. Last thing I want to do is arm felons).

Also, keep in mind that the pastor may not be the one who gets to decide. I If I recall, the wording is :"governing body" or something like that. The one who gets to decide may be a board of governers, but that depends on your particular church.

Let us know how it goes.

[jualdeaux]

Find the news clippings of church shooting rampages in Texas and elsewhere. Let him read them.

+1 Can't think of a better response.

[miklcolt45]

Psalm 149:6? May the praise of God be in their mouths
and a double-edged sword in their hands... (or DA pistol).

More seriously, 1. I would lift up several of the incidents where churches have been the targets of gunmen. A Baptist Church in Texas a few years ago. The Polynesian congregation in MO (?). Congregation in S. Africa some years back (less persuasive, perhaps, because of it not being in the U.S.-still illustrative however). 2. I would talk about the need to take responsibility for one's safety (and others?) as an ethical responsibility in keeping with the Christian faith. 3. You could talk about someone who an attorney friend of mine calls "my favorite pistol-packin' Methodist preacher." 4. I would point out the number of incidents prevented by someone who was armed, aware and prepared.

Those are my initial thoughts.

Now, you don't mention the denominational affiliation or theological persuasion of your church. Some denominations and churches with a more liberal theological stance are going to be hard to persuade no matter how many facts or how much logic you present. But, 'You have not because you ask not.'

[Cupcake]

Oh yeah, Peter carried a sword...

[ccw9mm]

He wants to know why I want to carry. What do I tell him?

Find a dozen clippings on shootings, stabbings and other attacks at church facilities, or in the area. Better yet, a dozen within a 3mi radius of that specific church. Your local police or sheriff's office might be able to help, to the extent that such things are mapped and documented.

Identify your simple reasons, such as:

• I have a family to protect. It's my solemn duty to keep them healthy and whole, no matter what happens.
• Criminals don't say where they're going to strike. They simply do it. And, as the clippings show, they can do so any place, at any time.
• It's unrealistic to expect that police response can magically arrive on the instant of an upraised knife or gun. The only practical method of defending against such a thing is to actually be armed and capable of defending.
• Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder. Simply, there is little chance of protecting against that without having the ability to resist that crime.

[stormbringerr]

3. You could talk about someone who an attorney friend of mine calls "my favorite pistol-packin' Methodist preacher."

what does that mean?

[miklcolt45]

3. You could talk about someone who an attorney friend of mine calls "my favorite pistol-packin' Methodist preacher."

what does that mean?

That would be me. In other words, "I know this Methodist minister who carries wherever he goes...." It was supposed to be humor. Sorry, l-o-n-g day.

[tankdriver]

Have him call and talk to my wife, who teaches aerobics at our church. guy came in to rob them till the 2nd instructor yelled Joan get you gun.... He left in a hurry ...

[stormbringerr]

That would be me. In other words, "I know this Methodist minister who carries wherever he goes...." It was supposed to be humor. Sorry, l-o-n-g day.

sure,no problem

[peacefuljeffrey]

Find the news clippings of church shooting rampages in Texas and elsewhere. Let him read them. If that doesn't convince him, then you and him are obviously on two different worlds when it comes to this issue and my recommendation would be to go elsewhere.

Perfect "10" post!


P.S. There is a chance that he may challenge the O.P. about the notion that he's going to "start shooting up the place, acting like a cop," etc. I would advise that he then ask the pastor which would be better, cowering until shot dead among dozens, or attempting to do something about it. Also emphasize that handguns are a last-ditch, all-else-has-failed response and that you fully recognize this. And ask him if he would have preferred if someone in those other church shootings had been armed, or if it's ok with him how things turned out.

[Kevan]

In my church there are three men who carry to church as a matter of policy and the pastor encourages it for safety reasons. One carries in his pocket, another in a shoulder rig, a third on his ankle. Most members don't know it. We function as ordinary security guards would.

At most events where people gather, I woud think that a pastor would be glad to know that the organizers had gone to the trouble to provide security personnnel. In the OP's situation, the pastor can have it for his church for free.

In addition to any clippings of news stories, you might also supply him with all the paperwork that went into the application process so that he can know about your background check, fingerprinting, classroom time, etc. He has at least two concerns: (1) is this guy dependable and (2) if something goes down one day, will they hold me liable? You might also point out that you are reading Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme, a very highly regarded book about the legal limits of using deadly force.

[Joe R]

In addition to any clippings of news stories, you might also supply him with all the paperwork that went into the application process so that he can know about your background check, fingerprinting, classroom time, etc. He has at least two concerns: (1) is this guy dependable and (2) if something goes down one day, will they hold me liable? You might also point out that you are reading Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme, a very highly regarded book about the legal limits of using deadly force.

Very good point!

[Paymeister]

Note: though I love theogical discussions, I recognize that this is a self-defense forum. I am posting for the benefit of a brother who needs specific Scriptural support to present to his pastor. I am aware (and somewhat saddened) that some will not be interested or will be offended; hopefully it will be of interest to some.

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The Sixth Commandment gives ample support to carrying for self-defense. This is from the , Westminster Larger Catechismwhich was written in 1648 by an assembly of theological heavyweights, and is well-respected in Protestant circles if not adopted outright (emphasis added):

Question 134: Which is the sixth commandment?

Answer: The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.

Question 135: What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?

Answer: The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.

Question 136: What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge;all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and: Whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.

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Obviously the Westminster Divines do not speak with the authority of Scripture, but they did their best to support their words from it. Here are some specifics:

Psalm 82:4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 24:11-12. If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

1 Samuel 14:45. And the people said unto Saul, Shall Jonathan die, who hath wrought this great salvation in Israel? God forbid: as the LORD liveth, there shall not one hair of his head fall to the ground; for he hath wrought with God this day. So the people rescued Jonathan, that he died not.

Exodus 22:2-3. If a thief be found breaking up [breaking and entering one's home - Paymeister], and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.