Why can't I exit my car gun in hand if I feel threatened? - Page 2

Why can't I exit my car gun in hand if I feel threatened?

This is a discussion on Why can't I exit my car gun in hand if I feel threatened? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, I am six foot four and about three hundred pounds, not all muscle but not all flab either. I have been told that I ...

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Thread: Why can't I exit my car gun in hand if I feel threatened?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Ok, I am six foot four and about three hundred pounds, not all muscle but not all flab either. I have been told that I can be rather intimidating when I set my mind to it. You have done something to greatly annoy me in traffic. I for whatever egocentric reason decide to give you a piece of my mind. I see you exiting your vehicle with weapon in hand. Am I not now reasonably in fear of my life? You have a gun in your hand! Shall we let the fire fight begin? Assuming we both survive and one or both of us are charged, how is that going to play for a jury?
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    While your car is not impenetrable or bullet proof, it does provide some protection against some threats. A car that is locked with the windows rolled up is difficult to break into without tools/weapons. If your aggressor is not visibly armed, getting out of your could be considered analogous to taking off you jacket in preparation for a fist fight. Getting out with a gun ups the ante dramatically. However, if the BG breaks your window and unlocks the door to get to you, it would be extremely difficult for him to make any assertions of self-defense. If you got out of your vehicle to flee the aggressor, that too, would work in your favor in court. That may also be necessary if the BG has a weapon of his own. There are not many bullets that a car door or window can stop. IMHO getting out of your car and approaching the BG puts both of you on equal legal footing.

    Of course all of this changes if you’re driving a convertable.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Ok, I am six foot four and about three hundred pounds, not all muscle but not all flab either. I have been told that I can be rather intimidating when I set my mind to it. You have done something to greatly annoy me in traffic. I for whatever egocentric reason decide to give you a piece of my mind. I see you exiting your vehicle with weapon in hand. Am I not now reasonably in fear of my life? You have a gun in your hand! Shall we let the fire fight begin? Assuming we both survive and one or both of us are charged, how is that going to play for a jury?
    MCP,

    That's not what happened though, and is a totally different scenario.
    Turney did not have a weapon in hand hidden nor visible.

    Also even as you are annoyed, why would you thinking sensibly and safely for your own skin choose to pull over and stop your vehicle on the street to go give some other person who very likely might be a nut bag (and should be assumed to be armed...just as you are) a piece of your mind? For what and to what end?
    You've placed yourself willingly and unwisely as well as unnecessarily into danger _and_ you are the aggravator at that acting criminally in doing so being both WWF huge _and_ on top of that being armed with a lethal weapon. Now you are the hyena and are acting criminally over what, some guy cutting you off or flipping you the bird?!

    If I were on your jury and directed by the judge to follow the law, I'd do so not following your emotion or mine or who who dissed whom.
    I'd as a result find you guilty of aggravated assault and if the guy died manslaughter.

    Aggravated Assault
    Content Updated 02/17/06

    Definition
    The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines aggravated assault as an unlawful attack by one person upon another for the purpose of inflicting severe or aggravated bodily injury. The Program further specifies that this type of assault is usually accompanied by the use of a weapon or by other means likely to produce death or great bodily harm. Attempted aggravated assault that involves the display of—or threat to use—a gun, knife, or other weapon is included in this crime category because serious personal injury would likely result if the assault were completed. When aggravated assault and larceny-theft occur together, the offense falls under the category of robbery.

    Source - http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...d_assault.html
    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Janq, the point I was trying to make is not related to the other thread, just the question about exiting your own vehicle with gun in hand if you feel threatened. If I am just walking up the other persons car (which I don't believe I would actually ever do) with the intention of doing nothing more than yelling at them, and they get out displaying a weapon, could I not argue self defense?
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Some excellent points regarding the previous scenario have already been made. A situation where exiting the vehicle and engaging the assailant would be acceptable and even advisable would be if 1) you were blocked from driving away and 2) exiting the vehicle was the best way to remove the threat. For example, if another person, such as my wife, were in the vehicle and the assailant was threatening her side of the car to the extent that I thought he'd gain entry, then it would be my best course to exit the vehicle and engage. A call to 911 would also be in order.

    I can think of a number of variations on this theme, but the key is inability to drive away. Situational awareness is a good hedge against that, but not foolproof.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  6. #21
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    OK, I've clearly got to learn how to write better / more precise questions... That is my fault, and I apologize.

    While I was using Mr. Gunn as a jumping off point, I wanted to pose the question to assume only that -
    - For some reason, I am stopped, and cannot drive away. I'll let your imagination take you to whatever scenario you wish to visualize...
    - The person who is approaching my car is acting in some kind of belligerent way. I have no way of knowing of course if he is, for example, drunk and high on meth, but he is clearly not "right".
    - For whatever reason, I have decided to exit my car, but I've only gotten to the point where I am in my doorway, still between the driver's seat and the inside of the open door. Maybe I have a small child in the back seat and I want whatever may or may not occur to be directed toward me & away from the car (for example).
    - And just to be even more specific, I can see the person approaching, but I cannot see both of their hands. I'm not saying where their hands are, only that I cannot see them.

    In this narrow case, knowing full well that I cannot clearly identify a threat, but also have a reasonable fear that something unpleasant (at the very least) is going to happen, would I be justified in unholstering my weapon & having it in hand, though hidden from plain site in some way.

    Maybe it would be easier for me to ask if you somehow found yourself in this situation, would you feel justified in having your weapon in hand but hidden.

    If instead I did only enough to clear my cover garment and put my hand on my still-holstered weapon, would that be any different?
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Janq, the point I was trying to make is not related to the other thread, just the question about exiting your own vehicle with gun in hand if you feel threatened. If I am just walking up the other persons car (which I don't believe I would actually ever do) with the intention of doing nothing more than yelling at them, and they get out displaying a weapon, could I not argue self defense?
    Understood, and to that end I addressed that secondary scenario completely in the remainder of my post beyond the first two sentences.

    Doing so per your own scenario and conditions stated would not be advisable for multiple legal reasons including the fact that you stated you are 6'4 and 300lbs. which in and of itself per your scenario would be construed by most average people as a threatening presence.
    The other guy, who has not yet committed a crime in yelling at you out his window or flipping the bird, seeing you pull over and exit your car looking like you do would in and of itself be reasonable for him, the jerk, to be in fear of _you_ toward his own life. he deploys his hidden weapon and you do yours and at that point it's all regrettable as two adults act and react unwisely to what was simply a minor disagreeance over driving style or interpretation of traffic rules.

    The simplest, smartest, and most legal action and solution would be to stay in your car, don't engage the jerk, and keep on truckin' moving on with your life and leave him to go on with his being a jerk.
    No harm no foul, no jail or morgue.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #23
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Janq, the point I was trying to make is not related to the other thread, just the question about exiting your own vehicle with gun in hand if you feel threatened. If I am just walking up the other persons car (which I don't believe I would actually ever do) with the intention of doing nothing more than yelling at them, and they get out displaying a weapon, could I not argue self defense?
    By emphasizing that I would have my gun in hand, but hidden from plain view, there would be no way an approaching person could tell that I was armed. Of course, they might suspect I was, or at the very least worry that I was since they can't see both my hands...

    I just thought of this too - since I've put myself into the position of the person being approached, I'm going to take the same tact as if I were anywhere else and approached by some belligerent - I'm going to do whatever I can to diffuse the situation verbally, but will be ready to defend myself if necessary.
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Well hey, if I don't see it, you didn't draw it!
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodc13 View Post
    ...For example, if another person, such as my wife, were in the vehicle and the assailant was threatening her side of the car to the extent that I thought he'd gain entry, then it would be my best course to exit the vehicle and engage. A call to 911 would also be in order...
    Do not exit the vehicle in that case/scenario, either.

    Command your wife to either duck her head down or drop her seat back back, wayyyy back, to the horizontal and to close her eyes tight and cover her ears...it's gonna get loud, RIGHT NOW.

    At the same time from inside the car deploy your firearm and fight from within.
    Exiting exposes you to the BG and/or any assistants he might have which you may not immediately be aware of.
    The cars metal body slows down access and ability of the BG outside to get hands on you or your wife, far better than air, while from inside your semi-hard cocoon you can move around and fight 360 degrees outward. And as he/they retreat you select Drive or Reverse gear and either flee or drive into, up, and over the person(s) as is most prudent toward putting distance and thus safety between you and the hyena(s).

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #26
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911packer View Post
    Answering the door at home is not a good analogy. You didn't leave your house and step onto public property when you answered the door. In many states, a car is not an extension of your home.
    I understand that by exiting my car I am entering into "the public". However, if I exit and am staying "with" my car, i.e. not approaching the person I perceive as a threat, I think of that as protecting myself and what is mine - my car.

    And I understand about knowing the laws for where you are. I'm in Mississippi, where both my home and my car are considered essentially the same way in terms of how I am justified in defending them (so far as I understand the law). That is why in my revised & more specific scenario, I emphasized that while I have exited my vehicle, I'm still between my driver's seat and the inside of the open driver's door.

    I do understand exactly what you are saying, but I happen to be in one of those states where your car is an extension of your home...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  12. #27
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    because you can't drive off in your house. Why deal with this person at all leave, why stay and possibly escalate the problem and change your life forever for something that didn't have to happen.
    If a person whose intentions are unknown and clearly agitated comes to my house banging on the door I not opening it the police can ask him what his problem is.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    This guy exited his car, gun in hand, when he felt threatened. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=34303
    That action probably saved his life. Granted, he may have seen or suspected the other guy had a gun in hand, which may not be the case in your example.

    I'm not going to sit in my car and await someone else's decision to execute me or not. If someone blocks me in and approaches my door, I'll either turn and face them in my car, my weapon in hand, or preferrably I'll exit my car quickly. Whether or not I have gun in hand when I exit will be determined by my evaluation of the threat at that moment. If threat has a weapon, my gun comes out. If threat doesn't have a weapon, my gun likely won't come out, but will be 1/2 second from coming out.

    Some may choose to stay in the "protection" of their car, but I don't have bullet-proof windows or armor plating. I'm NOT going to sit in my coffin and await possible execution, with the decision for me to live or die made by some angry stranger.

    We'll sort the laws out later. First order of the day is to survive.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    I do understand exactly what you are saying, but I happen to be in one of those states where your car is an extension of your home...
    That being fact does not trump nor supersede using best judgment and being sensible.
    At the end of the day being legally empowered to employ lethal arms toward your defense be you at home or in your car or on a boat or on your land or wherever does not give the holder of the lethal arm license to do whatever they might desire.

    One can come up with a million and one scenarios and twists on those scenarios. But the bottom line is that there is individual/personal emotion, there is the law and lawfullness, and judgment.

    Use your best judgment.

    If you are unsure of your judgment or ability to judge or when, where, how to apply judgment then that might be a sign that it's time to take either a CCW refresher course (assuming you took one at all) and or to continue your education with higher level learning & training such as with a quality course toward as much as offered by many folks such as LFI, Gunsite, S&W Academy, SigArms Academy, Blackwater, and many other reputable organizations with accredited and well respected instructors.

    Again this thread could go on to infinity with folks tweaking and modifying the parameters and variables. In the end though it all comes down to judgment with stay or go and shoot or do not shoot being at the top of ones check list.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Dang,

    In Mississippi, are you house and your car the same thing? Can you in fact place your pistol on your dash and drive down the road? I bet you can have a weapon visible from outside your home property without legal action, the car is probably a different story. It is in Texas.

    From what I understand the Castle Doctrine is relavent if someone else is attempting entry into your home or auto, whatever. It becomes less clear if you exit your auto, (in Texas we can exit our home), and confront the other person outside of the vehicle.

    I will agree that if you exit your vehicle with your weapon ready but concealed you are still within the law, as I stated in my first post. However that may not be the best thing to do as others have stated there is relatively more protection from inside a vehicle that outside.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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