Why can't I exit my car gun in hand if I feel threatened?

This is a discussion on Why can't I exit my car gun in hand if I feel threatened? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Janq If you are unsure of your judgment or ability to judge or when, where, how to apply judgment then that might ...

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Thread: Why can't I exit my car gun in hand if I feel threatened?

  1. #31
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    If you are unsure of your judgment or ability to judge or when, where, how to apply judgment then that might be a sign that it's time to take either a CCW refresher course (assuming you took one at all) and or to continue your education with higher level learning & training such as with a quality course toward as much as offered by many folks such as LFI, Gunsite, S&W Academy, SigArms Academy, Blackwater, and many other reputable organizations with accredited and well respected instructors.

    - Janq
    I do have a small bit of basic training, and I am one who does their best to understand the laws of the place in which I live. I also have a great desire - and every intention - to take as many courses as I can at the places you described. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds to be able to afford any of those classes right now, as I assume many of us here don't. That is why I come to this forum. I know that a decent amount of the advice here is worth exactly what I'm paying for it (), but a good bit of it is worth quite a bit more than that...

    The advice you've given in this thread, for example. I posted the question initially both because the idea of exiting a vehicle without a weapon in hand in the scenario I described seemed unwise, and because I felt at that time that exiting the vehicle was wise. The reasoning you have given has turned me around on that second position. Obviously, each situation will be unique, and I'll have to determine what the best course of action is in the moment. But now my "default" will be to stay in the car, with exiting being a secondary option, instead of the other way around.

    So, as I know I have said to you at least once before - and I'm sure I will say to you again - thank you very much! I appreciate & value much of the input I receive here, and promise to supplement the knowledge gained here with more formal training as soon as I can afford to do so.

    dang.45
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

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  3. #32
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Dang,

    In Mississippi, are you house and your car the same thing? Can you in fact place your pistol on your dash and drive down the road? I bet you can have a weapon visible from outside your home property without legal action, the car is probably a different story.
    You know, I'm not positive about whether or not it can be on the dash. I never considered putting it there, so I never thought to find out! However, I know that it is legal for it to be concealed or out in the open (on the seat next to you, for example) in your vehicle. Again, I'd prefer to keep it concealed for all the reasons given all over this forum, but it is legal for it to be visible.

    That was in my mind when I wrote the question. I know there is no issue carrying a weapon in my car, with or without a permit. Its only the very narrow case that I described that I was curious about...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Copy that Dang.

    Yes these classes are darn expensive. :(
    Which is too bad as they should be more widely available to all of us CCWs or just home defense minded citizens as this stuff could literally save your life, some other persons life (be he/she/they/it guilty or innocent of a crime), and ones self a whole lot of grief in time, money, and loss of freedoms.
    Last week I dropped $175 on an upcoming 1 day/8 hr. defensive point shooting course coming up in a couple of weeks. Alot of coin (I'll also need to bring 300-400 rounds of training ammo) but I justify it as money very well spent as an extension of my health maintenance and insurance efforts. Taking the class and others will help keep me healthy and save my family money, in a pro-active manner akin to spending coin on dental checkups or eating good healthy food.

    Myself I have zero interest or motive to get people to stay in their cars and as a result be killed, or as others have supposed to have folk be fearful of the law and/or criminals. That's just not the case at all.
    I'm all about survival. And with that to do so with the least amount of damage done to me, so that I can go on to fight again for myself and my family another day. It's very simple to that end. I have to be there and available. It's my job.
    I suspect a lot of other people here including yourself feel the same and have the same or similar responsibilities and desire to survive.

    Every play is different and staying in ones car may not be the right solution/play for a given scenario. There is no right answer for everything. One just has to do their best that they can think of and take advantage of at a given time under a given scenario. In the case of a car it is in and of itself a huge weapon and a pretty well hardened barrier.
    More hardened for an alleged infirm unable to otherwise flee but armed person than is air in a limited space, as was the case in Gumm vs. Turney. Yes cars have glass and bullets will bore through steel. Bullets go through air even easier than steel so that argument is beat. Further air is clear and provides zero cover while a cars body provides excellent cover for a person from within it's interior. Just ask any LEO who has ever had to make a felony stop how worrisome the cover potential for a driver possibly armed is for a person approaching from the exterior is. There are many tactical advantages being inside of a vehicle, including increased ability to escape. Gumm's cars direction was blocked by Turney but Gumms cars engine and drivetrain was not disabled. If he had stayed in his vehicle and Gumm was unarmed or for some odd reason unable to reach/deploy his firearm then use the 3K lbs. of steel and glass he has at his disposal along with the power of gearing enhanced torque as produced by his cars drivetrain. Ram your way out be it forward, back, or side to side.
    Stepping out of the car to go toe to toe with some stronger more agile and healthier person who might possiblly could himself be armed is a play, though not the only option available in the playbook. Choose your own adventure.

    Myself I choose to survive with the least damage possible, and an aggravated assault/manslaughter charge even if it is ultimately no billed or goes to trial and I am found 'not guilty' comes with an extreme cost in legal fees alone.
    No thank you, I'm not interested in playing that game. I've got mouths to feed, and future college bills to save for, and a house I like that I'm not interested in being forced to sell or lose in exchange toward funding a 'Save Daddy' legal defense fund.
    As well, I gotta be home by 6P to have dinner with my wife & kids and to walk the dog. If some fool runs up on me in life and wishes to take me away from them well then he/she/they/it are going to have a challenge because I will not be taken from my family easily nor quietly.

    Look I'm just some guy on the internet. :)
    I'm not an attorney nor a prosecutor, though I am directly knowledgeable of the law. I'm not a LEO, though I am knowledgeable of their procedures and have been through some LEO related training to that end though not academy...yet. I'm not a superhero nor a tough guy, though my soon to be 5 yr. old daughter thinks I can fix anything and my wife believes I will never let her or my kids down. My 1 yr.old son, he thinks I'm fun and funny and the guy to go to when someone visits our home that is unfamiliar...he flees to hide & peek from behind my leg.
    Truth be told I'm just a regular guy civilian citizen like you, and I walk the streets with a mindset of self preservation and a personal mandate to at a minimum survive...by any means prudent and necessary. That is all. I'm no judge or jury and definitely not a knower of all.

    Here at this forum and in your thread I'm just sharing what I've learned thus far direct/first hand, and/or second hand from instructors, and/or via third party observation and study of the trials & tribulations that others who have t-shirts have experienced such as Mr. Gumm. I'm still learning and will be, forever.
    I hope to never hear or read of you, me, or a fellow member being featured at ABCNews.com, CNN, or some other news source as a victim period muchless one who has had a loss in some way or another to a BG incident even if they might otherwise have at a minimum survived.

    Respectfully,

    - Janq

    "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone. But if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." - Malcolm X
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #34
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    in some instances exiting the vehicle is the only way to maneuver, even if to retreat. the cited example is a good one, as the BG blocked in the victim's car.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supertac45 View Post
    I'd just drive away, rather than escalate it.
    I would think, for the sake of the example, that the idea is you aren't able to drive away.

    Surely there will be some scenarios like this where driving away can't happen, be it you're out of gas, the car has broken down, perhaps there was a collision between your vehicle and his...

    I'm with Dang.45 on this. It seems prudent to prepare for the combat that the aggressor is making clear he is bringing with him. If he's coming toward your car after exiting his own, you can't possibly know what weapon he might have with him, and the level to which he might use it. So it's tactically dumb to just sit in your car -- as though it offers protection against anything but knives and fists (and maybe not even those). So accepting that you can't "just drive away," the next best thing for surviving this scene is to ready your gun for defense, and possibly either sit in the car and be ready to fire on his approach (which leaves you unable to move or get cover), or get out of your car and find cover, and possibly even retreat, while having the gun ready if it's needed.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Ok, I think that finally we have hit on something here.

    PJ, when you say it is tactically dumb to sit in your car, I think we can all agree with that. Those that advocate staying in the car, never, as far as I can remember, indicated that you sit and be oblivious to what is happening around you.

    Staying in your car, should include being very observant, and yes you should be able to see that the person has a bat, gun, whatever if they are approaching you with hands even partially visible, and taking actions for defense or offense if the case arises. If you have your gun ready, and they walk up with a fist, bat, tire iron, or most things your car is a big advantage, even if they have a gun you can still shoot from inside the vehicle.

    Being "trapped" in a car is not really all it sounds like. Most cars have at least two doors, allowing a means of exit if you have to, and in most instances mobility of the car, as has been explained repeatedly. Example that I gave weeks ago of sitting in your car and having someone try to get in while you attempted to run them down.

    When people say there is safety in your vehicle from assault that doesn't mean you can't prepare yourself, it just means that you have more options than standing toe to toe with someone in a parking lot, on the street, or wherevever.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Your first duty would be to retreat in most states if this is possible. Exiting the car may be seen as escalating the situation as you are moving to confront your aggressor. But if you do exit your vehicle and keep your firearm so it is hidden from view I don't see how it can be seen as a threat. If it is not in your hand if and when attacked it probably won't do you much good after all.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  9. #38
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Janq-

    Geez, and I thought my posts were long! Except for the 2 kids, everything you described sounds an awful lot like my life...

    I've got about 6 more months worth of work to do to climb up out of the financial hole I've dug myself into. After that I should be able to begin taking classes every month or two at the local ranges (I'm just outside of Memphis, so there are plenty of good ones to choose from), and hopefully a 2-4 day class every year or so as well.

    As for the scenario, since my Packers are playing tonight, I'll use a football analogy. I take all the information I can from this thread & others, and create my own "play book". In this scenario, staying alert but in the car, using the mirrors to watch the person approach, probably getting my gun into my lap, and waiting to see what happens is my "primary receiver". Using the car as a weapon or battering ram should the situation escalate might be my "secondary receiver", with getting out as I described being my "third receiver". Maybe I can come up with a 4th & 5th alternative too, just so that I will have as many choices as Favre will tonight

    I do the same thing for any scenario I can imagine, integrating new info into my play book, and changing the order of the options I have as I keep learning more.

    Like you said, its all about getting home safely, and avoiding / defusing situations that might interfere with that goal whenever possible.

    I guess the other difference in what you described is that I'm the one that makes dinner for my wife - I gotta get started on that... Enjoy your evening!
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  10. #39
    JSB
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    OK, first post for me. I generally lurk unless I have something real to add. This actually happened for me. At the time a 40 yr old reasonably fit male. Same with the other guy. Honked at the guy in front (that's why they give us horns, right?) and we ended up parking in the same lot. We apparently had the same destination and it was not an issue of one following the other. He approached very agitated, grabbed my door handle to yank the door open and I reached into my glovebox and began to pull my pistol out. He was gone immediately. I called 911 (as did he apparently) and LEO showed. He admitted his actions and that I didn't point the pistol at him. We were given the choice, both go to jail or both go home. We both opted for #2, but I consider myself extremely lucky from an aftermath point of view. My reaching for the gun was an assault and his yanking the door open was some sort of "carjacking" type felony as explained by LEO, so were were about even in that department. It was a sobering reminder if just why pulling a pistol is a lot of trouble and I will remember it for all future encounters. Lessons learned...

    1. The presence of a gun CAN prevent further violence but will also bring LEO;
    2. Call 911 and get your side to the responding LEO's;
    3. Act calm and cooperative;
    4. Consider yourself lucky if it goes no farther than that!

    YMMV.

  11. #40
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rb8941 View Post
    IMO when carrying, the first recommendation is always to avoid a confrontational situation whenever possible.

    Wouldn't it simply be easier (and more desirable) to drive away? Maybe it's just me but I don't see the advantage of exiting my car, gun in hand.

    You can't always just drive away. Someone got out of there car and approached mine with a bat. I had my family in the car. I was at a red light and tried to exit my lane but didn't have enough room. I beeped at the people in front of me and they didn't move. Now what do you do? sit in your car and wait to get hit with a bat... or worse by staying in the car you actually put your family in danger.

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    I wouldn't get out of the car with it in my hand (brandishing) but I was always taught u cant fight in a car!

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcheinaman View Post
    ...Now what do you do? sit in your car and wait to get hit with a bat... or worse by staying in the car you actually put your family in danger.
    You select D1/Low or if driving a stick 1st. gear or select Reverse, and you floor it...into the corner of the car blocking your exit/escape.
    Sitting there in the car to do nothing and watch is not advisable. Use the car and it's mass to your advantage.
    As to the car blocking you that gets clipped, you dial 911 and report the incident telling them exactly what occured and why you hit the car you hit and why you left the scene (assuming you left the scene). They the police will understand.
    The driver of the other car will want your insurance info. Give it to them.
    You may take a hit on your auto insurance but the cost of that ammortized over the duration of your life will come to less than zero as relative to sitting there like a goose waiting to be butchered.

    A car can be repaired and replaced, easily and cheaply relative to a human body.
    Don't sweat dinging your bumpers and doors if it means getting away with your hide unscathed.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by f8lranger4x4 View Post
    I wouldn't get out of the car with it in my hand (brandishing) but I was always taught u cant fight in a car!
    Clarification. Merely having a gun in hand is not brandishing. Waving it about or displaying it in a threatening manner, or intentionally ensuring it's visible in order to suit a bad agenda ... that is brandishing. Varies somewhat by the laws that apply in your jurisdiction, of course, but mere handling of a firearm is not brandishing. And some may take you to task merely because they see it and fear such things. But allowing that to inhibit preparations for a seriously-deteriorating situation could get you killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    ... exiting a vehicle, gun in hand, is a no-no pretty much no matter what. Why is that?
    Can't imagine what would prompt someone to mistakenly believe that no situation could ever be allowable or justifiable for exiting a car while under duress.

    Cars break down. Cars crash. Others crash into us, deliberately or not. It's not possible to demand someone remain in such a car if the situation outside is rapidly deteriorating to such a degree that his/her life is in danger. Exiting a car in such a circumstance? I'll do it every time.

    I personally have had a temporary failure of my car to restart, in a bad neighborhood. While watching a few unsavory types milling around within ~75yds of my car, I finally got it started. The unsavories had begun to notice and, so far as I could tell, react to the situation brewing right in front of them. Think: dinner bell. That experience gave me a start, to be sure. I realized that I was rapidly running out of options. This was prior to my carrying. Never again.

    If I have a reasonable fear for my life or safety, being approached by an unknown person, how can it be anything other than a good idea to revert back to my Boy Scout training and "be prepared" by having my lawfully-carried gun in hand?
    It can certainly be twisted to seem threatening, if the situation ends in a crime against you in which you leverage your firearm to defend yourself. But then, any and every instance of defending yourself via force is going to be scrutinized. Such situations would be no different.

    Again, since this is me in this situation & not Mr. Gumm from the referenced thread, lets assume that my gun, while in hand, is still hidden & not pointed at the person coming toward me...
    Exactly so. The devil's in the details, as with everything we do. Do with with evil in mind, or deliberately bend the mean of the laws to suit the situation, and you'll have things to answer for. Legitimately protect yourself by staying ahead of the curve (ie, taking precautions prior to getting clopped upside the head) isn't, in and of itself, a bad thing.

    That all being said, I would certainly prefer to surround myself with 3600 lbs of metal, as opposed to not, assuming that the car was still mobile and could effectively increase my chances in a bad situation. Once it became a severe liability, I would absolutely consider abandoning it for more-solid cover. Would depend on circumstances.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  15. #44
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by f8lranger4x4 View Post
    I wouldn't get out of the car with it in my hand (brandishing) but I was always taught u cant fight in a car!
    Blackwater as featured below and most executive/VIP and urban tactics instruction organizations as well as .gov would disagree strongly with who ever taught you that you can't fight in (or from) a car.

    Selected videos featuring how to 'fight' from inside and/or with a vehicle:
    Blackwater USA Defensive Driving Course
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P8bQxfNRFY

    Offensive driving ['Fifth Gear' via BBC TV on how to use your everyday regular unarmored vehicle as a means of escaping a pinch]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haJuwAINADI

    Traffic Stop Shooting - Police Officer Survival Training (The reverse a BG fighting from inside a vehicle against a police)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZCC9qINBvw

    I'm surprised that folks here are not understanding this as a concept.
    Fighting from within and with ones vehicle is nothing new and has been a mode of combat in use and training since cars became normal modes of transport and transportation.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    I'm surprised that folks here are not understanding this as a concept.
    I'm sure many do.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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