"Where alcoholic beverages are served..." - Page 3

"Where alcoholic beverages are served..."

This is a discussion on "Where alcoholic beverages are served..." within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by American Pit Bull Does that include the wine at Communion? And thus the slippery slope of zero tolerance... I believe that the ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Pit Bull View Post
    Does that include the wine at Communion?

    And thus the slippery slope of zero tolerance...
    I believe that the phrase "under the influence" is typically considered by law enforcement & the judicial system to mean having a BAC at or beyond whatever the "legal limit" is for a given jurisdiction. So unless your church is substituting 190 Proof Rum for the communion wine, I don't think you are in any danger...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged


  2. #32
    Member Array American Pit Bull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    I believe that the phrase "under the influence" is typically considered by law enforcement & the judicial system to mean having a BAC at or beyond whatever the "legal limit" is for a given jurisdiction. So unless your church is substituting 190 Proof Rum for the communion wine, I don't think you are in any danger...
    In the statement that you agreed with on the previous page, I didn't think that was the definition being used...

    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    The law should be "No carry under the influence". You should be able to carry into a bar and especially a restraunt that serves alcohol as long as your not drinking.
    I took the "as long as you are not drinking" as a zero tolerance position....


    My apologies if I read too much into that statement and your concurring statement.


    I am 100% against drunk driving and handling firearms while intoxicated, but I cringe at the "alcohol and driving" and "alcohol and firearms" don't mix statements.
    Every time that I go out to dinner with my wife, I drink a serving of alcohol with dinner. And it is disheartening that so many gun owners feel that my right to self defense, while carrying out a simple pleasure such as wine with dinner, should be infringed.
    If you cannot trust yourself to consume adult beverages in a responsible manner and you think that the government should enact laws to keep you from hurting yourself; then we are on a different page.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dang.45 View Post
    I know I made a rather blanket statement, but I stand by it, at least as far as being able to carry is concerned. There is an enormous difference in my mind between carrying a gun while drinking, and driving under the influence. The right to self-defense is absolute, whether you are a habitual drunk, or if you've been stone-cold sober your entire life. The right drive a vehicle is ... well, there is no such right. Driving is a privilege which I believe society has the 'right' to restrict in any way it deems appropriate.

    Let me repeat what I said above though. I will never drink in any public place when I am carrying, and I will do whatever I can to convince everyone I know who carries to do the same. I think it is blatantly irresponsible to do so, and I don't care who knows it. If you've chosen to carry around a tool that can save your life by taking someone else's, then I believe it is your responsibility to do whatever it takes to maintain a clear mind in case you ever need to use that tool.

    I think our disagreement comes not so much in our attitudes (though mine may actually be harsher than your's toward carrying under the influence), but in that I believe that it is neither the government's job, nor it's place to force anyone to act responsibly. I don't want the government to regulate where I can & cannot defend my life against those who might wish to take it.

    Those who will give up liberty for the sake of security will have neither. I'll choose liberty every time...
    I don't drink when I carry either. But, one beer with a meal does not impare me.

  4. #34
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    Some of you guys see no difference between "having a beer" and being drunk or smashed and intoxicated?

    Do you think there is any difference at all between your kid sitting down and eating one glazed donut and your kid sitting down and gobbling up two dozen glazed donuts?

    I guess smoking one cigarette will probably give you lung cancer.
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  5. #35
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    American Pit Bull, robere, QKShooter-

    You guys are reacting to one position but not the other. That's probably my own fault for not being clear enough, so here's my attempt to clarify-

    1. My personal belief, the way I choose to live my own life, and the way I think would be best for everyone else to act as well, is to refrain from any consumption of alcohol while in public & armed. I can think of a few exceptions to this, like taking communion wine, drinking a champaign toast at a wedding, or something similar in nature to those things. Again, that is what I believe is proper in public. I'll do whatever I darned well please in the privacy of my own home, and I'll drink whatever I feel comfortable with at the home of friends & family (so long as I'll be sober before driving away, of course). Let me repeat - this is my personal opinion, and I'd do my best to persuade you to adopt this attitude as well if we were ever to discuss it in detail.

    2. As a matter of public policy, I don't believe that there should be any law, rule, or regulation that prevents me from protecting my life & the lives of those I care about anywhere, any time. My right to self-defense is inviolate, and no public entity (i.e. government) has the right (though some have the power) to disarm me at any time. I'm OK with private establishments prohibiting me from carrying, and I'm OK with governments passing laws that would make ignoring the request of those establishments a crime. I won't patronize those businesses, but as private entities, they have the same rights as I do.

    To paraphrase a line from the Free Speech movement - I may disagree with you regarding carrying while drinking, but I'll defend your right to do so with all the energy I can muster.

    We may disagree with what we personally feel is right or OK, but I will never claim the right to disarm you because of it.

    Unless you are at my home of course. My house, my rules...

    Does that make what I've said any better?
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  6. #36
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    It sure does.
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  7. #37
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    It sure does.
    Woohoo! It's been a long time since I've written anything for public consumption, and my communication skills are more than a bit rusty. Though I've been getting it right by the 4th or 5th post usually. Y'all will just have to "suffer through" it will I get back up to snuff...
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  8. #38
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    Unfortunately, AZ has a no carry in establishments the serve alcohol includung restaurants. no percentage rules.
    Makes it simple for me, I will not vist any of them.
    Too bad for them

  9. #39
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    Whole hulluva lot of tempest about a non issue.

    A quick check of the jurisdictions that DON'T regulate where and when carry is OK quickly shows that such regs have little effect. Pennsylvania and West Virginia are two that immediately come to mind. I have NEVER read of a single incident in either case where a licensed CCW'r engaged in reckeless and illegal conduct simply because he/she was armed in a place selling alcoholic beverages.

    Further, the comment that there is NEVER any justification for an intoxicated person to utilize deadly force is pure BS......Would you bar a woman about to be raped or worse from using that gun to defend herself.

    That matter is simply hype and presumes that licensee's are inherently untrustworthy and need to be watched like kindergarteners.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    One of the reasons some states have a "alcohol serving establishment" clause in their ccw statute has to do with the wheeling and dealing it took to get the statute passed. It is offen much easier to modify the law once on the books then to get on the books in the first place.

  11. #41
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    Since I'm one who also said he will have a drink with his meal I would like to explain what that is to me. For me its a drink waiting on my meal to arrive and a drink while eating my meal. Then heading home. The only thing I'm impared with is the taste of a good meal in my mouth.

    Second someone needs to explain this to me. Why is it not just as imporant for a drunk person to protect his life as a sober one. Will not a sober person who made mistakes in a shooting get in the same trouble as a one who is impared? Mistakes are mistakes! And yes if you are impared that will be use against you, but if its a good shooting why would anyone want to make you feel like you are in the wrong. I do not think you should put the two together. Like someone esle said on here, driving is a privlege but protecting yourself is a right. Just how I feel.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array tankdriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    A couple of years ago when I took the CCW class, one of the things discussed was the rule against carrying where alcoholic beverages are served or consumed. The instructor told us that there was legislation waiting to be viewed at the State level (Tennessee) that would allow concealed carry in such places as long as you yourself don't drink.

    How do you feel about this? Personally, I love the idea. If some crazy decided to run into a restaurant and start mowing people down, I would sure feel better being armed and having others around me armed. And since I don't drink alcohol, there's zero danger of me being impaired.

    What are your thoughts on this? Also, I hear that some states already allow carry where alcohol is served.
    I carry everywhere except Gov building.

    TN's law is written with a "Safe Harbor" clause. If you carry where you should not, and you have to use your weapon, they will not go back and charge you with illegal carry.

    39-17-1322. Defenses. —

    A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part if the person possessed, displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person or the other person defended was a victim.


    [Acts 1994, ch. 943, § 1.]
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  13. #43
    Member Array dang.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankdriver View Post
    TN's law is written with a "Safe Harbor" clause. If you carry where you should not, and you have to use your weapon, they will not go back and charge you with illegal carry.

    39-17-1322. Defenses. —

    A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part if the person possessed, displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person or the other person defended was a victim.


    [Acts 1994, ch. 943, § 1.]
    That's good to know, since I live only about 4 miles south of the TN/MS state line, and drive into TN fairly frequently... Thanks!
    "It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Guess, I grew up in a different time, and find no fault with anyone carrying a legal handgun anywhere.

    Florida’s CCL law requiring us not to go to bars while carrying a weapon is the same FDLE rule for off duty LEO’s, and the last time I read a Federal policy manual I think it said the same thing.

    However, since smoking is allowed in Florida’s bar and not in restaurants I for one have not been in a bar in a long long time.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitalexplr View Post
    One of the reasons some states have a "alcohol serving establishment" clause in their ccw statute has to do with the wheeling and dealing it took to get the statute passed. It is offen much easier to modify the law once on the books then to get on the books in the first place.
    That's precisely why Montana has an "alcohol serving establishent" clause in our CCW statute. It's one of the concessions, along with banks, & city, county and state buildings, that had to be made to get the law passed.

    All efforts to repeal this clause has been unsuccessful to date, however.


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


    Terry

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