Handgun to rifle - Page 2

Handgun to rifle

This is a discussion on Handgun to rifle within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You are working late in an industrial strip mall in a relatively remote cornerof the city. While taking some stuff out to the dumpster out ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array doc Russia's Avatar
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    Mind if I try to flesh it out...

    You are working late in an industrial strip mall in a relatively remote cornerof the city. While taking some stuff out to the dumpster out back, you notice some sort of commotion between a pair of parked cars about 30 meters away. You decide to carefully investigate, and happen upon a rape being perpetrated upon a female by three males. Just about the time you recognize the situation, one of them notices you, when you are about 15 meters away. He yells something in a foreign language, and then two of them charge you, they each appear to have bladed weapons. Since your hand was already on your weapon, and you were still 40 feet away, you draw as you shout a warning. They continue, and you quickly put two rounds into each perps chest. You notice in the streetlight that they have MS 13 tattoos.
    Then things go sideways.
    Shouts towards the buildings beyond them notify you that there were more in the alleyway further down which you didn't notice.
    Situation: no less than 8 individuals, some with guns, some with machetes are about 30 meters away, and starting to run and raise weapons. There is one perp very close to you (10 meters distance) on the ground. You realize will need to stop at your works back entrance to unlock the door, which will take a good 7 seconds to dig the keys ourt of your jeans, find the right one on the ring of 30 keys, get it into the lock, unlock, and get inside, which is just too damned long. Your car/truck parked on the other side of the strip (75 meters long total) is about 30 meters from the front door of the establishment, pointed towards it. Inside is an SKS in a gun rack with a few stripper clips in the glove compartment, but nothing in the weapon.
    It's 30 meters to the dumpster, and 15 more to the corner of the strip mall. the strip mall is 20 meters wide, and a featureless wall on the end.

    No; you are not working at a gun store; you are working at an engraving shop, or some other place which would not have weapons readily available.

    Okay; you just dropped two MS13 gangsters, and their 8 friends are pissed, armed, and drawing down.
    "You are what you do when it counts."
    "The secret to long life...is gunsights!"
    Bloodletting


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    SKS with strippers versus what I already have in my pocket: I'll probably go for what I already have. I'm not particularly mobile due to an old injury.

    I have 29 rounds minimum of .357 Sig JHP and 5 of .44 special. I hope it doesn't come down to that, but I'm thinking of another consideration that's even more evil: I don't want them to get my license plate and call friends on their cell phone while I fight off the never-ending horde and have them attacking me and mine before I even get a chance to do anything about it or tell them to bug out.

    Ironically, I *do* work at a gun store, but figure anywhere you have to unlock with that much security is going to have an alarm. I'll expend a shell to shatter the window and sound the alarm, hoping for backup a little faster and more direct than the Beiruit I just unleashed in downtown Idaho.

    I'm in a world of hurt. 8, some with guns, means I'm going to get hit and hurt. I'm good, but there are few that good and it's pure dumb luck at 8-1.

    My best chance for reloads are the guns of the idiots I drop.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    The thought of fighting back to your rifle is all fine and dandy but not always true in the real world I cant take one everywhere with me and what if im in say for some dumb reason the mall or even the mall parking lot...

    Even if i had a Rifle say a Hk G3 in the car it would be impractile to try to get to it ..

    Even i think for cops its not alwyas practile to fight your way back to the Shotgun ..


    Im more of the mindset make what ya got work Or as we used to say when i did some racin Run what ya Brung

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Doc, excellent and realistic expansion. Assuming I had a Glock and the 3-4 mags I had when I was in Houston, I would have to say "attack". Maybe crazy, but you're in a can of whoop-ass you really can't handle in any logical way. The machete & pipe/bat weilders would worry me more than the shooters. The SKS would be a moot point- they will run you down, en-masse, before you would likely even touch it. Time to use up a whole bunch of the good luck you hopefully have, and dip your "hangers" in cold-cast brass! The only difference in approach, to me would be: 1) If I had a cell phone, I'd call 911, say, "Armed rape in progress at_____", and pitch the phone in the dumpster(the 911 tracking will home in on it, and if you successfully evac, the BG's won't be likely to see your phone-with your stored#'s-lying someplace convenient). 2) Assuming this is obviously a gang-rape, there is no warning- the first shot would be as careful and aimed as I could make it; a good, violently explosive head-shot, if I really felt I could, spray a couple after them as they ran. "Shock and awe" could buy you the time to grab the victim and haul ass to the car.

    Regarding the plate: I never use the lower plate bolts- you can fold it over if you have to. Not a big concern where I am now, but.....

    I remember about 13 years ago, a man was being beaten by two assailants with pipes, in an apparent bump-n-jack (in Houston), off the 610 loop. An unidentified male in a pick-up pulled up behind the two involved vehicles. He fired a warning shot from a shotgun into a lawn, backing down the assailants, helped the victim into his truck, and dropped him off at the door of Humana Hosp. What the rescuer did was completely illegal, at the time(I don't know how Houston views loaded long-guns now, I would assume it hasn't changed), and the victim alternately described him as black, hispanic, and white- same general thing happened with "witnesses" in the neighborhood.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    We (in NW Fla.) just got finished with our 2nd hurricane in 10 months. Part of my wife and I's "retreat to safe room" plan, it to have already stored in the room a AK and 6,30 shot pre loaded mags. Also my Benelli M1 Super 90,with 7 shot mag tube and 50 rds. of #4 buck. These are put into the room just before the wind picks up. All my other "around the house" weapons are put into the safes. After reading the reports ref. the aftermath of hurricane Andrew in south Fla., it was utter chaos. There were looters,either alone,or in 2's and 3's,sometimes more,going systemattically through the neighborhoods taking what the people could not defend. The LEO's were of little or NO help. One report said that the homeowner was told by a LEO just after the wind had died down "this will be the only time that we can get around to your neighborhood so you will have to protect yourselves until the National Guard can get here". If I am told this I want to have the proper weapons,ammo,lights,etc. to do just that. My wife and I will protect what is ours. Even if it has blown down the block. This is the time for the most intimadateing,nasty,killer looking,black,highest cap mag that you can come up with. And I can come up with alot. These will be the times for rifles and shotguns.-----

  6. #21
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    Doc - great scenario - and there for sure, forget the rifle - you'd have to do the very best with handgun - and hope you had enough mags. Closing speed of assailants would be well uncomfortable! Touch and go whether things would pan out at all well.... a true nightmare scenario.

    Thx to others for input to my distictly flippant original post.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  7. #22
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    The real question is, how good are you at praying while running at full speed with bullets whizzing over your head?

    Been there done that...It worked then...
    but I am a lot slower now... :slomo:

    One thing that usually bears out...
    Anyone bringing a handgun to a rifle fight usually loses.

    The one thing that gets many cops in trouble is bringing a handgun to a rifle fight.Some of them just cant figure that out. It used to be that we had to have specific authorization form the shift supers to bear a rifle, but its been changed to anytime anyone sees a longarm you are automatically justified in getting yours out.


    The biggest thing to consider when making the transition is the immediate threat. If you are activley engaged, its probably not the right time to be getting the rifle out. On the other hand, there will be times when you could safely access it.We have been taught that if responding to a hotcall with longarms involved to get outs out BEFORE we get there, no after.

    One thing that everyone needs to be aware of is that the police radio transmissions usually have litte detail. It may sound something like "active shooter at such and such street all units respond" meaning that the first shooter a cop sees is the one he will deal with and we have no idea who is the good guy and who is the bad guy.

    As a responding citizen, one needs to be very aware not only tuned to the bad guy but the cops as well. Remember the number one rule of Murphys Law of Combat...
    there is no such thing as friendly fire...

    With that being said...ANYTIME one can respond with a rifle puts them at an advantage rather than a disadvantage...or as much as one an get in a shootout anyways...

    As for the hoards of people shooting at you...You only have two responsibilitys...

    1. Shoot as many as you can before running out of ammo.
    2. Live long enough to return home,gather up some friends and reload so that you can go back and shoot the rest...

    :AR15firin :rocketwhr :AR15firin
    Last edited by HotGuns; July 22nd, 2005 at 06:26 PM.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    In My case, I have a shorty AR15 and a poly tec type 56 AK...yes buys.I DO have semi autos..I periodically carry them in my trunk when I'm in the type of area that's less than questionable. Each weapon has 10 mags each that go with it.. of course in a hard shell case..none of the mags are in the weapon of choice for that day.. but they're VERY accessable to me, just in case.. As for the Pistol, I'd hope I'd hold them off for enopugh time to get the long range stuff into action..

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    What always did and still does AMAZE ME TO THE MAX is>>> almost all LEO's have a shotgun in their car. Why the heck don't they ever leave the car with it. Do they have to get a blessing from their CPL/SGT/LT/CAPT/the GOV. There, riding with them is a almost ideal problem solver,and it just sits there. If they're not gonna use it then put a carbine in the rack. But if you exit your vech. and head down the ally to a known or even suspected gunfight with just you revo/pistol----- then-----OH WELL !!

  10. #25
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    unless you can provide space from aggressors to access a unloaded longarm and the BG's keep coming I don't see much chance to use a rifle. Most fights happen fast and over quickly.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Question Getting to the Rifle

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Hehe - I stress again QK this is VERY tongue in cheek .

    I conjured this up because it is often reckoned that the handgun is not the most effective tool - certainly it does lack the potential that a rifle has! Furthermore, if we consider distance factors then again, the handgun loses out. Thus the saying ''The handgun is a means to reach your rifle''!

    Much as anything this was exploring what one might do when really pressed - needing more firepower and effectiveness - which a rifle could bring. Add to that the likelehood that rifle would not be ''instant ready'' then that presents an interesting complication.

    Humor me - I am playing with extreme situations! Imagine maybe a ''ghetto hoard'', intent on seeing you as history.
    I'm thinking that that advice on fighting your way to the rifle is for soldiers caught with only a sidearm or civilians defending their home. In almost every other case it is a recipe for disaster. That's why I went to Texas with my Glock and 72 rds ready and loaded to launch before I would have had to top off the first mag from a box. In the gun was 10 rds (9 + 1 std mag) and on my hip or in the belly bag (lots of room there) were 2 hi-cap M22 mags with 15 rds each. So that's about half my basic load ready to go.

    A rifle, while having more power (even then, 5.56mm vs .40? UH-UH) is a distance weapon. Loooooong distance as in infantry combat ranges. There is a very real probablility of over penetration and richochet, thus presenting a greater threat to innocent life and resulting criminal charges or lawsuits.

    A rifle will be more difficult to wield in a close combat situation, and taking cover is more problematic because that barrel may well reveal your position even if you're not shooting. I don't worry too much about noise signature from other sources because after the first shots everybody will be deafened.

    Even a gang rape underway while classified as an act of aggression presupposes that the gang will feel itself to be "in charge" and although your intrusion will probably force a violent reaction (the charge of the eight armed folks) they're not stupid, either. A forceful and well executed counterattack to the charge may well set them to flight, because above all they are survival oriented, not suicidal. They may hunt you later, or maybe not. The wolves don't like to mess with sheepdogs.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  12. #27
    Member Array joe/OH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    I'm thinking that that advice on fighting your way to the rifle is for soldiers caught with only a sidearm or civilians defending their home. In almost every other case it is a recipe for disaster.
    If you just dropped your second hi-cap magazine and are still shooting (and still alive) you are already in a disaster. Obviously (by everyone's admission) this is a far fetched scenario. In this case, and I doubt you would disagree, you only have a few chances for survival: Dumb Luck, Running away, or giving yourself a major tactical advantage (i.e. getting to a better weapon).

    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    A rifle, while having more power (even then, 5.56mm vs .40? UH-UH) is a distance weapon. Loooooong distance as in infantry combat ranges. There is a very real probablility of over penetration and richochet, thus presenting a greater threat to innocent life and resulting criminal charges or lawsuits.

    A rifle will be more difficult to wield in a close combat situation, and taking cover is more problematic because that barrel may well reveal your position even if you're not shooting.
    135 grains moving at 1324 FPS (.40) vs. 80 grains moving 2869 (.223), or better yet 168 grains moving at 2680. I'll take the rifle cartridge. I'm not so worried about ricochet if I'm fighting off that many attackers. After the first 30 pistol shots, most innocents or anyone that doesn't have a deathwish will be out of the area.

    As far as close combat, with that many attackers the likelihood is that you will not be at close range or at least it won't start out that way. If it does, you're most assuredly already dead unless you've managed to put some distance, in which case, the rifle will win out again.

    If the rifle is locked up in a car 70 yards away with the magazines locked in a separate compartment, then of course not. But if it's 20 feet away with a loaded magazine (or several) nearby, then heck yeah. Lay down cover fire with the pistol to get to the rifle, lock and load, and make the best of it.

    And as far as intimidation goes... well, when the gun nut pulls out the AK (not a LONG range weapon BTW) and starts blasting rapid balls fire from the muzzle... anyone armed with a pistol and half a brain will disengage and haul tail.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe/OH
    If you just dropped your second hi-cap magazine and are still shooting (and still alive) you are already in a disaster. Obviously (by everyone's admission) this is a far fetched scenario. In this case, and I doubt you would disagree, you only have a few chances for survival: Dumb Luck, Running away, or giving yourself a major tactical advantage (i.e. getting to a better weapon).

    If I've just dropped my second hi-cap, I've stumbled into Dien Bien Phu. Based on firsthand experience with felons as a former state parole officer, I don't know of a single one (minus the psycho's looking to commit suicide and they don't run in groups) who would go toe to toe in an extended gun battle with anybody if they had a way out.



    135 grains moving at 1324 FPS (.40) vs. 80 grains moving 2869 (.223), or better yet 168 grains moving at 2680. I'll take the rifle cartridge. I'm not so worried about ricochet if I'm fighting off that many attackers. After the first 30 pistol shots, most innocents or anyone that doesn't have a deathwish will be out of the area. The 5.56mm is more like 50gr and was designed to wound, but I'd agree 100% on the .308 at 168gr. But I don't carry my sniper grade M1A in my minivan. MAYBE when I get the SOCOM 16....

    As far as close combat, with that many attackers the likelihood is that you will not be at close range or at least it won't start out that way. If it does, you're most assuredly already dead unless you've managed to put some distance, in which case, the rifle will win out again.

    I don't know about you, but with that many attackers if I have a way to avoid engagement to start with, well...discretion is always the better part of valor! Unless you're acting in rescue mode

    If the rifle is locked up in a car 70 yards away with the magazines locked in a separate compartment, then of course not. But if it's 20 feet away with a loaded magazine (or several) nearby, then heck yeah. Lay down cover fire with the pistol to get to the rifle, lock and load, and make the best of it.

    I don't carry a rifle as a matter of course and I'd be too concerned about the security of the weapon while I wasn't in the vehicle to be able to enjoy the reason for the trip to start with. So the scenario is even less plausible for me.

    And as far as intimidation goes... well, when the gun nut pulls out the AK (not a LONG range weapon BTW) and starts blasting rapid balls fire from the muzzle... anyone armed with a pistol and half a brain will disengage and haul tail.

    NOT a long range weapon? That depends on your definition of "LONG RANGE" which I take to mean anything that exceeds effective pistol range. Gang members and armed crooks lack "half a brain" to start with, although I'd agree with the premise that the shock and awe of sudden and dramatic escalation might send them away in a hurry.
    I'd be more worried about that "GUN NUT" label for later when this goes to court, especially for the lawsuits.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #29
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    I'd be more worried about that "GUN NUT" label for later when this goes to court, especially for the lawsuits.

    Not me...
    Id just be happy to make it to court...

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