CCW "obligations", moral questions - Page 2

CCW "obligations", moral questions

This is a discussion on CCW "obligations", moral questions within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If I can see an active shooter, I'll stop him. If I can't see him, I'll get my family to safety, keep my weapon concealed ...

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Thread: CCW "obligations", moral questions

  1. #16
    Member Array MountainPacker's Avatar
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    May 2006
    Denver, Colorado
    If I can see an active shooter, I'll stop him. If I can't see him, I'll get my family to safety, keep my weapon concealed and then find him.

    I couldn't live with thought of the Christmas to come with so many missing mothers, fathers and children, even if they aren't from my own family.

  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array lacrosse50's Avatar
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    Aug 2006
    SW Ohio
    A lot of food for thought. I'm leaning towards the "cover/conceal, escape/hunker down" camp. But I can sympathize with mountianpacker's post.
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
    -Herbert Spencer

    NRA Life Member

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynamo55b View Post
    Does any body have any GOOD advice on how to keep family members safe in a mall type environment?
    Depends on your moral code. Depends on your state legislature's willingness to string you up for defending yourself, or others.

    Suggestions please, for keeping the family safe, moving, what to tell police, and what should a CCW do.
    You need to vigorously pursue more training, from varied sources. What mix of goals you apply to varying situations will depend on the experience you gain, not merely what you read in a book, nor (even less so) what quickie advice you get over the internet.

    Are you morally obligated to remove the threat simply because you have the means?
    Of course not. Read up on A.O.J. Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy. When things reach that point, generally speaking you're under no moral obligation to cease in any action to defend yourself. Beyond that, you need to judge where to draw the line.

    Should you simply protect your own family and those immediately around you?
    If that's where you draw the line. Others will deem a different "line" is appropriate or justified. Each situation is different.

    Can they prosecute you for "hunting" the gun men in order to stop them from shooting others in line of fire?
    Sure. Has been done for years, sadly.

    You're right to be confused. Running through all the questions until you come to answers isn't a simple thing. It depends on your moral code, your strengths and abilities, and on what you're prepared to do in the face of evil directed against you or others.

    As you search for your answers, keep this in mind: so long as your community (city/state) deems it morally justifiable to legally go after people like you who choose to stand up for what's right, how far should your moral justifiability take you beyond that point? Think it through, because that may well turn out to be the greatest test of your life.

    For me: I carry in order to defend myself and my family, primarily. I may (or may not) widen that standard to include those in my immediate vicinity depending on the situation and violence/unjustifiability of the attack. Morally justified? Absolutely, so far as it goes.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).

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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Nov 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I have no moral obligation to anyone but myself and my family in a time like this.

    My off duty guns are carried for self preservation, not to stop crimes perpetrated against others. Before you "flame" me let me just tell you I have had long talks with my Agency's lawyers regarding this and their off duty policies. Let's just say that while I may not agree with them I have a higher obligation to my family and making sure they have food to eat and a place to sleep.

    If you are a CCW holder I think the best thing you can do in a Mall Shooting type situation is to flee, if you safely can. Remember, your handgun is a tool of last resort and you don't know all the players. It would suck if you shot a responding "plainclothes" LEO, thinking he was the BG, or a responding LEO shot you thinking that you were the BG.

    Life ain't like the movies and as much as we might want to play Bruce Willis in Diehard it most definately will not be like what you see on the big screen. Now if said "Mall Shooter" was to point his gun at me, or someone I believe to be the "Mall Shooter" I think I could reasonably articulate in court why I took whatever actions I might have taken.

    Don't forget, when it's all said and done you will still have to be able to articulate why you did what you did.

    Well said, and I totally agree.

    I look at it like this. If I'm out somewhere and I see "some guy" shooting "some other guy" and I have my pistol on me, I'm not getting myself involved. For all I know, the trigger man might be an undercover cop. Not going there.

    Now, if I see a crazy with an AK shooting down kids on a playground, I'm going to unload on him, and if necessary, reload, then unload again.

    The point is that unless a situation is obvious beyond all possible alternatives, then maybe. But a mall shooting, like you said, could lead you to shoot a fellow CCW'er, thinking that he's the original BG, or lead to you being shot by a fellow CCW'er who is thinking the same about you, or maybe a cop.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array coffeecup's Avatar
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    Tough call. The first obligation is to protect your family. Second, yourself.

    I live in a state that recognizes that we do have a right (not the same as an obligation)to protect others as well.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Oct 2007
    In this case, the shooter was a couple of floors up with a rifle. So even if you where taking fire from the shooter and wanted to return fire, you would then be bring a handgun to a rifle match. Not a good thing. And you have to figure that if you take a shot and miss, the BG is going to concentrate all his efforts on you.

    So, unless you have a “very clear” shot, the best thing would be to hunker down, and wait for the Calvary. OH ya, and keep your sidearm concealed; you don’t want a responding LEO thinking you’re the BG.

  8. #22
    Member Array JrHawk's Avatar
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    Nov 2007
    The above discussion just highlights why I joined this forum. Sure, I love to read the comments on holsters, see pictures of all the new pistols and pick up a few maintenance tips. However, I realize there are no cut and dry answers as to how one might handle a ccw scenario during a situation like the mall tragedy yesterday in Omaha. I applaud the intelligent and well thought out responses to what was a matter of life and death and a scenario that any one of us could walk into tomorrow. Our prayers go out to all those who lost love ones and to those injured in this senseless act.
    Erick46590 likes this.

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Oct 2007
    Jefferson City, MO
    No easy answer.

    Your first obligation must be to your family members. If you are by yourself then you must decide what level of risk you want to assume.

    If you have your cell phone, call 911 and advise them of every detail you can of what is going on. Remember you are there and the police are not - yet.

    Let the dispatcher know if you are armed and have your weapon out. Let them know your discription and location. Keep 911 on the phone, if you can, as you change positions if you are going to go mobile.

    Unless you have training in combat type scenarios such has this, don't try to go after the BG. If he comes your way, be ready.

    As an ex-cop, my inclination is to move towards the sound of shooting rather than away from it. However, I'm now a private citizen and need to keep that foremost in my mind.

    Missouri law does give me the authority as private citizen to use deadly force to protect myself or another from death or serious physical injury, so if I get a shot and take it, I'm not concerned about legal ramifications. On the other hand, our malls are almost all posted, "No Weapons Allowed". But being armed in the mall is not a crime. The worst the mall could do is ask me to take my weapon and leave. In this situation I suspect they would not do that.

    Do what you can to keep yourself and those around you safe. "Tomestone Courage" will get you just that, a tomestone.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array simon's Avatar
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    BikerRN....well said

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    Jul 2006
    If my wife and I are near an exit...then that's what I'm using. If I see a guy walking in a friggin mall with a rifle, I'm more than likely going to leave post haste anyway. an SKS isn't a short weapon. Even with a field coat, you'd think someone would have seen it. Why wasn't security/LOS notified BEFORE the shooting started.

    If he opens up where I can see him, I'm on the phone to 911 giving them a play by play. If I get a chance for a clean shot, I'm taking it. I'd rather deal with the active shooter than the images of dead children that I might have been able to save.
    If I hear POP POP POP and I don't know where it's from..then I'm outta there. Until I can tote body armor and a M4 to the mall I'm not going actively looking for a shooter. My wife is the most important thing I need to protect...eveyone else is an afterthought.
    bcvojak likes this.
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    Jul 2006
    My look on that is "Keep moveing" I don't plan unless directly incountered to try and fight. I would not go hunting through the mall for a shooter. My family's safty comes first which means keep'em moving and putting distance between your family and the shooter.

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Oct 2007
    Nederland & W. Tennessee
    I understand that many of you are husbands and fathers and I understand and respect your logic for only acting to defend your family.

    My faith and religious beliefs would have me taking action, whether I was armed or not. No one depends on me yet. No one needs me yet. I'm just some kid that is a mild burden on his family.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not depressed or suicidal, but if I give my life in order to replace a father and husband, I am going willingly.

    "Wherever I go, everyone is a little safer because I am there; anyone in need has a friend." -Capt. Jack Hoban, USMC
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, World Drifter

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I think it depends on the situation. Take the recent mall shooting in NE. Anyone (non LEO) that didn't have a clear view of the shooter on the 3rd floor of the mall standing there with his rifle taking out innocent people should have put distance, cover, concealment, whatever between the shooter and themselves or their family and anyone else they could assist.

    Anyone (again non LEO) that had a clear view of the shooter and had no means, ability or opportunity to engage the shooter and stop the bloodshed, should have done the same by putting distance, cover, concealment, whatever between themselves, their family and whomever else they could and the shooter.

    Here is where there will be some disagreement. I would if I had a clear view of the shooter, (again using the NE case as it sounds pretty clear to recognize the threat), and after I made sure that my family if they were with me was putting distance, cover, concealment, etc, between themselves and the shooter, would if I had the means, ability and opportunity, choose to stop the threat. Many may disagree, but in the end, I beleive that if I do what I think is right to stop the threat and save innocent people if I am able, that is what I should do. I would not let legal cost, or the hardship to my family if I died in the process stop me from acting on what I feel should be done.

    Those are my personal beliefs, I hope that some will agree, and I am sure that others will not. We all have to live with what we believe.
    Erick46590 likes this.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    Texas CHL Instructor
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post
    In this case, the shooter was a couple of floors up with a rifle. So even if you where taking fire from the shooter and wanted to return fire, you would then be bring a handgun to a rifle match. Not a good thing. And you have to figure that if you take a shot and miss, the BG is going to concentrate all his efforts on you.

    So, unless you have a “very clear” shot, the best thing would be to hunker down, and wait for the Calvary. OH ya, and keep your sidearm concealed; you don’t want a responding LEO thinking you’re the BG.
    Yep. ^^

    Too many variables with this type of situation have occurred past and will occur future to call it now, prior, with surety.
    Going handgun vs. rifle is not smart as was discovered by one well meaning but slow on the trigger civilian during a mall shooting several years back, who subsequently found himself being zippered with rifle rounds ankle to chest.
    As well one cannot assume now days that by chance seeing at contact distance one BG will be THE BG. There may be two, or four others. Taking a shot, and missing or hitting, will open up to him and/or them your relative location. Not just your location but the location of you and your family.

    One has to think it through and make their play, and that's before consideration of an area being a 'Gun Free Zone' and self defense laws et. al. at the state level.

    - Janq

    "Live or die. The choice is yours."- Jigsaw, 'Saw'
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #30
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
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    Oct 2006
    I think like most everyone else, your first obligation is yourself and family. If the BG present himself in a way that you can take care of the problem without endangering yourself of family, then by all means, please do.
    I think its a huge mistake for many reasons to "hunt" the BG.
    "Just blame Sixto"

    I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.

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