December 6th, 2007 11:27 AM
The simple answer is you can't keep your family safe in a mall unless everyone shops together even then it depends where the nut job starts his rampage.
If you are not directly confronted just get the family and leave.
As far as the moral obligation goes is morally better to leave my family alone and unprotected or someone who has no intension to help themselves.
If you are not willing to leave your family broken and destitute (lawyers, civil suite) or be willing to die for the person you try to protect just leave.
For me the answer is simple I carry for me and mine.
December 6th, 2007 12:11 PM
not a mall situation but similar. if some nut starts shooting up a local fair ground with few exit points what would the best, flexible COA be?
"Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
Every well-bred petty crook knows: the small concealable weapons always go to the far left of the place setting.
December 6th, 2007 12:24 PM
Much appreciated, and your actions would not be forgotten...ever.
Originally Posted by Agave
When I was single and had less primary responsibility i.e.; wife, 5 & 1 yr. old children, single earner head of household, I too had felt same as you and would have acted/reacted similarly.
If in some way I could aid my fellow man, my neighbor, and or stop a BG(s) without putting my family in jeopardy then the the choice would be clear. Act.
I think though that if I saw a mother and child or child alone in danger say in a state of panic and standing out in the open waiting for 911 to 'rescue' them effectively acting as targets, and I was with my own family, I would take the high risk and make an effort to be of help to them at a minimum adding them to my own gaggle of ducklings behind cover/concealment toward protecting as best I humanly could.
It's just real tough to be sure about these things as stuff it happens, happens fast & sudden, and you fall back to what ever training you might have had then from there fight off fear and do the best you can by gut and luck. :\
No disrespect to those who feel differently and thus might actually do differently.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
December 6th, 2007 12:34 PM
I think it is totally situational response. As far as keeping the family safe, when the wife and I take the boys to the mall we usually also bring a pair of FRS/GMRS radios that we use if we split up. These serve two purposes, #1 is to entertain my seven year old so he doesn't give mommy a stroke, and #2 our cell phones are on different carriers and the mall where mine works great she barely gets signal and vice versa. Also, cell towers have limited capacity and if SHTF everybody and their brother will probably be calling someone, so there is no guarantee I could even get a call out.
Things to keep in mind when in the malls, fire codes dictate maximum distances between exits. These exits wont always be obvious. Most malls are laid out so deliveries to stores are done through service corridors behind the stores. This way the delivery of stock doesn't disrupt our shopping experience. If you are in a store and the balloon goes up, make for the stock room in the back, check the peep hole, if the service corridor is clear make for the loading dock. If it is a multi-level mall there will be a freight elevator that may need a key but there will be at least one stairwell. Access to these corridors from the common areas of the mall will be indicated with little exit signs that most people dont notice, and are frequently where the public restrooms and pay phones are.
As far as hunting the shooter, we can do that here in Texas
But I would not recommend it. However if I am on an escalator at the Galleria and the guy in front of me pulls out a weapon and just starts blasting away at random, I think I would probably take the shot. But if he is not close enough that he is dropping his brass in my nachos, I am getting me and mine out, or taking a defensable position and waiting for the cavalry.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
December 6th, 2007 03:40 PM
For me it would really depend on the situation. I can imagine a time when I might put my life at risk even to save someone I don't know, then again, there are other situations where staying out of it is the best thing to do.
I was a LEO long enough to learn that no matter what I think I would do, I will only know for sure after I have done it!
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
December 6th, 2007 03:41 PM
Let me start by saying that I would not find fault in anybody here who chooses to stay low and protect their loved ones directly and that, furthermore, I have no idea exactly what I would end up doing if I were in such a FUBAR situation.
One of the basic premises of the pro-CCW community is that having responsible, legal gun-toting citizens in public places is that we can, indeed, stop maniacs like this. We all point out that the Omaha mall is a gun-free zone (i.e., a target rich environment).
And yet the vast majority of us responsible gun owners think about Omaha and conclude (forgive me for generalizing but this seems borne out by the discussion) (1) I need to stay and protect my loved ones, (2) a mall is a big place with lots of room to take cover, and (3) charging an AK with a pistol does not rank high in the spectrum of 'Good Tactical Positions.'
What this makes me think is...how often would the CCW holder make a difference in this situation? The guy in Omaha popped off maybe a dozen rounds and used the last one on himself. Short of having been right there when he opened up (and even if the mall weren't gun-free, basic statistics say that there is a very small likelihood of any of the nearest, say, few dozen people carrying) this seems like a case where not much was going to change the outcome.
Obviously I still agree that availability of concealed weapons presents a good deterrent to rampaging lunatics. I am also aware of specific cases where a weapon was successfully used to cut short a rampage (Utah shopping mall; Pearle, MS, high school; the law school shooting a few years back). But this thread has made me start scratching my head a little bit...
Anyway, sorry for the tangent...
[Mods, feel free to relocate this to the Omaha threads if deemed appropriate...]
December 6th, 2007 03:55 PM
I agree with BikerRN and can see MountainPacker's point of view. Very difficult decision and would depend on the circumstances unfolding.
The most exhilarating thing in life is getting shot at with no results.
- Winston Churchill
Endowment Life Member - NRA
Life Member - GOA
Member - Oath Keepers, SAF, CCRKBA
U.S. Army (72G) 1975-1980
December 6th, 2007 04:22 PM
I can only mirror others comments, mainly CCW9MM
Lima and I have gone over this a few times, mainly it depends on personnel and logistics. If it was just me and our children, it would be my first duty to get them out of mall safely. Now malls are like small cicites pending on size, there are a lot of service ways and exits not sen by the casual observer, next time you're driving around the outside of the mall, take note of all the service doors.
Originally Posted by dynamo55b
Alot of stores have back exits that the staff use. (watch the staff close up shop, you see them pull down the fence from the inside, how do they get out?) My first attempt at evading a shooter would be to go to a store along the outside wall and find one of these exits.
If I am with my wife (in this scenario I have it lucky becuase I'm married to Lima) she will take the kids and go for one of the service ways to safety will I cover their evacuation.
If time and circumstances permit, I will show others the way out while maintaining cover and concealment from the entrance from the store with an outside exit. *Note to all, look for these stores while at the mall. Even the upper level 2nd and 3rd floor stores probably have exits to service corridors
If the shooter is in my immediate vicinity I will engage as needed if the situation presents itself and try to neutralize the threat.
Morally, not really, I will help others as long as my family is safe without exposing myself to unnessecary dangers unless I am COMPELLED TO DO SO. I'm sure some circumstances may embolden me to act out.
Are you morally obligated to remove the threat simply because you have the means? Should you simply protect your own family and those immediately around you? Can they prosecute you for "hunting" the gun men in order to stop them from shooting others in line of fire?
So many questions....
I will if the situation presents itself aide others, but as for seeking the threat if not in my immediate area...
I'm not going to go looking for the gunman, sorry folks but that's the way it is. malls are logistical/tactical nightmares with too many nooks, crannies, places to hide and fleeing civilians and it will be way to hard to pie my way down wide open spaces with a pistol. I may advance, by going rapidly from storefront to store front keeping some cover only IF I KNOW where the threat is, and I want more af a barrier between the threat and my family and others.
I'll want to engage it (the threat) on my terms if possible, not the threats terms.
Then comes the other part, what happens if you do decide to to seek out the threat and encounter armed security / LEO? If it's rent-a-cop mall security that's armed, well you might get shot on accident. (and yes some mall security personnel are armed, you probably don't want to shop there, but it is what it is) if it's an LEO, your odds of being able to ID yourself as a friendly have gone up.
Also as noted above there's going to be alot of people running scared, and they will be running away from the threat (hopefully) and that puts me at a disadvantage becuase the BG doesn't care who he shoots, while I am looking for one particular un-identified target that has a screen of running and screaming cover.
December 6th, 2007 04:30 PM
Your the only one to decide this one. My family is first, you are second, and I am last when it comes to who I will defend with my life.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
December 6th, 2007 06:24 PM
There's a couple of rules I fully intend to live by.
1) When you're told you have the right to remain silent, then do so.
2) When you hear gunfire, go the other way.
If I'm not given a choice due to circumstances, then I'll fight. But, I don't feel an obligation to protect anyone other than myself or my family, with two exceptions: I will not stand by to see children or the infirm slaughtered.
My thinking, as twisted as it is, is that all healthy adults, such as myself and my wife (both have ccw permits) have the same options to self defense as I do. If they knowingly and willingly choose to not defend their own lives, then I'll not risk my life and possibly deprive my wife and kids of a husband/father, to do something they personally didn't see fit to do.
The elderly/infirm/children generally don't have these options available to them.
December 6th, 2007 07:28 PM
Well said It is what I would like to believe. Truth is I dunno. Each time & incident is different. Ask me when the smoke clears, I hope is to say I am proud of who I see in the mirror.
Originally Posted by Supertac45
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family
December 6th, 2007 07:32 PM
I don't know if I could live with myself if I didn't try to help people who were under fire from a BG. Having been in the .mil and in a unit that specialized in CQB, I feel I might stand a good chance against a BG.
But as someone else has said, I would worry about the LEO's mistaking me for a BG. And If I was with my family I would definately get them to safety first, before I made a descision to act.
"Islam is not your friend"
December 6th, 2007 08:52 PM
I'm with Biker RN. Having a concealed weapon does not automatically make you a deputy or a super hero.
December 6th, 2007 09:07 PM
As far as I am concerned the only moral obligation I have is to myself and my family. If by protecting them I protect someone else along the way all the better, but I will not go out of the way to do so. All to often the one you protect will turn on you afterward. How would you like to shoot to protect someone, just to have them say "I don't think he needed to shoot to kill". I have always figured if I have to pull my weapon, I will shoot to kill.
1. A dead person can't return fire.
2. A dead person isn't going to sue you.
December 7th, 2007 12:43 AM
1943 - 2009
"Shoot to kill" is an erroneous mind-set. You shoot to stop the threat.
I have always figured if I have to pull my weapon, I will shoot to kill.
No, but his next-of-kin almost certainly will.
A dead person isn't going to sue you.
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
By FireAir7215 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: September 15th, 2009, 12:20 PM
By MeatPuppet in forum Defensive Carry Guns
Last Post: September 21st, 2008, 02:05 PM
By Gideon in forum Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion
Last Post: February 13th, 2008, 08:35 PM
By Ghettokracker71 in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
Last Post: December 5th, 2007, 07:06 AM
By Rock and Glock in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
Last Post: March 17th, 2006, 08:50 AM
Search tags for this page
colorado ccw obligations
force works zuma
moral issues regarding weapon concealment
moral obligation in the use of deadly force
moral obligation with firearms
moral obligations with licence to carry
morality of ccw
obligation for ccw
obligation to ccw
Click on a term to search for related topics.
» DefensiveCarry Sponsors