CCW "obligations", moral questions - Page 6

CCW "obligations", moral questions

This is a discussion on CCW "obligations", moral questions within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT No...I just think people who say they are shooting to stop are kidding themselves. The justification for the action - shooting ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    No...I just think people who say they are shooting to stop are kidding themselves.

    The justification for the action - shooting - is either present or it is not. If it is present, the act is lawful, moral and proper.

    If the justification for the action - shooting - is not present, then your actions are those of manslaughter or murder.

    But the action remains the same. One should not put the front sight on target and press the trigger without accepting that your action is going to have a substantial chance of causing someone's death. To gloss over that lightly is wrong.

    Dismissing or sugar coating the action is wrong.

    Killing is not always a bad thing...but it is something that should be looked at squarely.

    If you don't, the aftermath is going to be something you may not be able to deal with.
    I think that is good clarification.

    And as I wrote, I DO accept the ramifications of my actions. The distinction in terminology will not alter my decision to shoot.

    The attacker's actions however, may determine my decisions/actions after those first shots. (He may kill me, he may escape, he may fall unconscious, he may surrender, etc) But if he stops being a threat to me, my intention is to stop shooting.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)


  2. #77
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark View Post
    If you are referring to when I told another poster he was playing semantics - he was - by confounding shooting to stop with shooting to wound. They are not the same. It was not a response to you and I said just what you are saying - we shoot to stop - the manner in which the stop occurs is not relevant.
    No, I wasnt. I was responding to Mitchell CT.

    Thanks
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #78
    Member Array Mjodr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    The law's pretty clear on what you are doing in self-defense in general: attempting to stop an attack using an equal degree of force as the attack itself in order to do accomplish this. In other words, the response has to be commensurate with the attack. So when the attack is lethal you are allowed to use lethal means to stop that attack. Once the attack is done, so are you. Continuing on is beyond the law's allowance.

    That's the best yardstick for anyone's response to any attack: not too little, not too much.
    Not every state has laws that says that. In Florida the law just states that you may use deadly force to prevent death, great bodily harm or forcible felony.

    - Kidnapping
    - Murder
    - Manslaughter
    - Sexual Battery (Rape)
    - Arson
    - Treason
    - Robbery
    - Burglary
    - Carjacking
    - Home Invasion
    - Aggravated Battery
    - Aggravated Assault
    - Aggravated Stalking
    -Any other felony that involves the use or threat of violence against any person

    (I admit.. Treason is on the forcible felony list.. but I doubt that would come up much, or would be legal for a civilian to do anything about)
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

  4. #79
    Member Array Mjodr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I am in complete agreement with Mitchell on this.

    "Shooting to Stop" was at the time the "Politically Correct" term for "Shoot to kill"

    If you're not shooting to kill, you're shooting to wound, shooting to wound is bad, shooting to wound indicates to me that "I didn't mean to kill him" which in my mind = man slaughter. You're either using lethal force or you're not, there is rarely a middle road, especially when it comes to using a firearm.
    In another thread I had a statement I made torn apart because posters interpreted "threat is dead" as "shoot to kill", as if it is a bad thing... and not what you are supposed to do when firing your weapon. (It wasn't how I meant it, and I did change it to "Threat is gone", but I see nothing wrong with "shooting to kill" either)

    I aim to keep myself and others around me alive... and that means firing my weapon at the BG until we are safe. If the BG falls wounded and I can remove his weapon from his vicinity and keep my gun on him until help arrives.. fine. If not and he keeps attacking.. .... ....

    I was never a fan of firearms. My getting one was solely in order to protect myself and others. I'm not going to make up excuses to take someone out.. but in a deadly threat situation.. I will meet it with deadly force.

    It always seems as though some people treat guns as toys and that BGs are simply playing.

    I worked in an ER and helped patients that were there because a BG they thought was "incapacitated", wasn't as incapacitated as they thought.
    Last edited by Mjodr; May 29th, 2011 at 04:45 PM.
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

  5. #80
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Let the dispatcher know if you are armed and have your weapon out. Let them know your discription and location. Keep 911 on the phone, if you can, as you change positions if you are going to go mobile.
    OK thoughts but this part is wrong. I would call 911 from a store phone, not tell them who I am, not tell them I am armed. Otherwise, I always carry a vid cam, I'd be a good witness, but would try to remain anonymous. First thought would be to flee and observe from a safe distance, but ONLY if I was alone. I would flee and not look back if I had a loved one with me. Having the HG means I have the ability to flee, basically. (who's gonna stop me?).

    Now, being a big tough guy and a Martial artist with fighting experience, my inclination is to seek to engage, but due to the way the public, LEOs and the courts are treating people, and I BLAME them for making me feel this way, there will be no shooting someone to save a stranger. Sorry.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    OK thoughts but this part is wrong. I would call 911 from a store phone, not tell them who I am, not tell them I am armed. Otherwise, I always carry a vid cam, I'd be a good witness, but would try to remain anonymous. First thought would be to flee and observe from a safe distance, but ONLY if I was alone. I would flee and not look back if I had a loved one with me. Having the HG means I have the ability to flee, basically. (who's gonna stop me?).

    Now, being a big tough guy and a Martial artist with fighting experience, my inclination is to seek to engage, but due to the way the public, LEOs and the courts are treating people, and I BLAME them for making me feel this way, there will be no shooting someone to save a stranger. Sorry.
    Well, if you did shoot, I'm pretty sure you'd end up in jail and minus a cc permit.

    Good luck immediately finding 'a store phone', good luck avoiding other witnesses, and good luck avoiding security cameras that are almost everywhere.

    So your instincts to be a good witness are probably better.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #82
    Member Array dojoman's Avatar
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    In my situation, with a Mall setting, there is plenty to think about and take note of. Every mall that I know of in my area has "back halls" mostly pointed to be Emergency Exits, so take note of these halls. If possible or allowed, perhaps talk with security to see if or how to use them in that sense. If you explain you position and concerns, most of these guys, i would think, will allow to show you.
    Another tip that I take is, the all common Food Court and Movies. If my friends and family want to eat, I do everything in my power to eat somewhere else, not the mall. Why? Food court is often wide open and packed with lots of people....breathing ground for a mass shooting wouldn't you think. the movies the same idea.
    As far as in the stores, take note of their rear exit point as well. I wouldn't go around asking the store managers about them, b.c they might think your up to no good, but just take note. Whenever your in the store, and as much as possible, try to at least have eyes on your closest entrance point. If someone was coming in guns a blazing, you will hopefully see them before they shoot.
    If you are a CCW holder, I personally am, I sure wouldn't try to take out the shooter unless I had no other choice. I read in a post about this and I agree. There is probably other ccw holders around and no one is going to know at first whom is the bad guy. (Sure the bad guy is almost always just pointing and aiming and just unloading.....or is he?) There are situations when a shooter is better at marksmenship, so just b.c you are aiming to take him out, doesn't mean someone will mistaken you for the BG. But if you do draw and attempt to stop the shooting, you better re-holster quickly. Never run to or from the situation with it drawn, Ever. Cops wont know who or how many BGs there are. You might be a victim of Friendly-Fire.
    This next part is not legal advice, it is only how I would handle it......If you did take the shot, and reholstered, it is best to tell the cops outside of the mall when they have a command post. (This is a tricky situation, and everyone is different. If it was me, I would only state that I fired at the suspect, and will sign the complaint. I would also say where the location was. Outside of that, I would state that I will be happy to answer any other questions in 24hrs with my lawyer. To me, having a lawyer is always needed, even if you were justified and considered a hero. I know its hard to believe, but there are people whom would try to sue you, and you better be ready for that. There will be plenty of time to make your statement to the cops at a later time, in a secure area. Again, This is by no means legal advice, it is only how I would handle it.)
    One point that I will make, not sure if anyone else did. When you do come out of a mall in a Active Shooter area, Always, and I mean Always keep your hands out of your pocket and hands at least somewhat up. This is key to law enforcement whom might be set up outside of the entry point. Again, they might not know how many or who, so doing this will keep you from friendly-fire. Each police force has their own way of handling the situation so just be aware of that.
    I hope this helps some, and I will again state this is not legal advice (I know I sound like a broken record, but I do not want to be drawn into legalities with how the internet is these days)

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