Those possible - mere few milliseconds!

This is a discussion on Those possible - mere few milliseconds! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Does anyone else wonder - about that fraction of time within which they have to make a decision - it concerns me - always has. ...

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Thread: Those possible - mere few milliseconds!

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    Those possible - mere few milliseconds!

    Does anyone else wonder - about that fraction of time within which they have to make a decision - it concerns me - always has.

    Training can be top notch - and that will probably aid speed of response and accuracy etc - ergo a win situation if decision good but ......... the way things can go down even with best con yellow etc ...... that minute time frame in which we have to respond .. how do we get it right?

    I always counter scenarios folks come up with by ''play it as you see it'' - no one situation is gonna be like another exactly ....... so in thousandths of of a second, maybe, we must try and get it right. Could be if we are too slow we are toast - but too fast and getting it wrong .. well, again we are toast but, in a court of law with problems!!!

    Just musing once more on the awsome responsibility we carry with us - over and above our sidearm.
    Chris - P95
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    Wait, wait, wait...are you saying that time could actually be a factor in a lethal encounter? Holy smokes, I just spent 20 pages being told that it isn't! (That's a joke, guys...)

    As to the question... I think the same thing. Obviously, we can't pre-game every single thing that will ever happen to us, but a lot of mental (and physical) rehearsal for some of the more common situations is certainly a good idea. Having some tools readily available will, in almost all cases, be better than having none and being forced to completely "wing it."
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    The older, and hopefuly wiser, I get the more I think about this quite often.

    Yeah, we have all said ..."yeah, I wouldn't hesitate, those BG punks"...with varying amounts of swager.

    But I have to be honest, there are certain hypothetical situations that I might hesitate and be unclear about my duties or obligations might be in those situations. When it comes right down to it...squeezing that trigger ends a life. That is an ominous responsibility.

    I have had to pull & present my weapon twice, many years ago, but still maintain that no matter how much training, mental scenario running you do...you don't REALLY know what you are going to do?

    As I am responsible for the safety of the two grandchildren I am raising, if they are involved, I am sure there would be less hesitation but cannot be certain. The best we can do is train I suppose?
    "If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18
    ...if not...be prepared to meet Mr.10mm, .45, .40 or any one of their little brothers.

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    The best we can do is train I suppose?
    That sure helps I'd agree but - bottom line is ... will we get it right!?

    I sure hope so. I fully expect to join worm food menu not having found out
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Member Array Mr. Chitlin's Avatar
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    The thug already has his mind made up, our indecision, no matter how short in duration, could be the difference in life and death.

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    There are certain "universal" cues that tend to be given off just before an impending criminal assault. And though not all situations are the same, they often will contain similar elements. If we learn what to look for it greatly cuts the time down that it takes to make decisions.

    If we don't stand there trying to rationalize WHY this guy looks out of place,Why he is looking around like he is looking for cops or witnesses,Why he is now moving with a purpose toward us,WHY if we speak to him he does not look us in the eye and is giving us some line of nonsense as he closes in on us, Why he is maybe stretching and shifting his weight while he talks to us (seen ALL THE TIME in video footage) and finally WHY is he now reaching for the waistband of his pants, then we can make decisions BEFORE we can tell whether there are 5 bullets or 6 in the cylinder of the revolver he now has shoved in our face.....

    A lot of criminal assaults on the street stem from situations just like this. When approached by someone on the street we usually "invite" them to come to within a few feet of us. That is where polite people talk to other polite people in public. We then often ask what they need/want/what we can do for them. Why? I'm all for helping my fellow man,BUT I'm not all for inviting him to close the distance to where he now has a bigger advantage than he did before. If I am not in the Good Samaritan mode today, or if I LISTEN to my subconscious which is likely screaming "this guy is trouble" then a simple "No thank you" , or "Sorry I can't help you" is really all the discussion needed here. IF he continues to maneuver toward me that is what Inspector Holmes calls a CLUE.

    Do you REALLY need much more info to start making a plan? And before someone pops in and opens their pie hole and says "well you can't just shoot everyone who gets close" Have I said shoot anyone yet? No. This even works if I don't have a gun. What I'm looking to do at this point in the "game" is keep MOVING my feet so that he never gets a chance to get set or a chance to back me into a corner or lure me to where passersby cannot see what is going on or to where he may have an accomplice waiting. Have we shot anyone yet? No. Have we pulled a gun yet? No. Why ? Because guns don't solve all our problems. I know that may hurt someone's feelings, but the gun is really the last 5% of the solution and not called for YET. All we have done is used footwork to avoid the initial approach and put a hand up in a "stop" type gesture (referred to in some corners specifically Geoff Thompson and Southnarc ) as the "one handed fence". If this is met with any further encroachment on you then guys YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE IN A FIGHT.

    When does a boxing match start? When the first punch is thrown? No of course not. When does the match start? At the bell.But there is no bell on the street you say. I say you just don't know what to "listen for". Well even a deaf guy knows when the bell rang in the boxing match. Why? Because he SEES the 2 opponents begin to MANEUVER toward each other. The fight starts with MANEUVER not with the first blow being thrown . If you are waiting to get hit to start fighting...good luck with that. BUT If you can intercept and redirect or stop his movement then you have greatly changed the way he originally planned this to go down. What does that mean for us? Gives us an advantage in initiative(and time ) while he formulates a plan B.

    This that I have shared here is a TINY portion of what has already been codified into pre fight ritual. info is out there you just have to go get it.There are guys teaching this and working with experimentation on it every day. I suggest folks look up Southnarc -(who has done the bulk of the work in this area of pre fight cues)-or Gabe Suarez ( or his staff) or Michael Brown, Karl Rhen, Tom Givens, Insights, or go to NTI. The NTI crew have a pretty good grasp on dynamics of criminal assault as they act as criminal role players every year for the last 18 years for the NTI event. Of course NTI is more a test of what you already have in the tool box, not a place to learn the basics of conflict management.So I would look up those guys I mentioned and THEN go test it at NTI.

    The point is the fight is often won or lost by decisions made early in the game, not in the last minute of the 4th quarter (when YOUR gun comes out). Problem is many do not know what to look for as the clue that the fight has actually already started (whether they realize the fight has started or not).......But I'm sure just walking around oblivious to our surroundings and relying on drawing fast will work too.....
    Randy Harris
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    My experience has been that what you regularly practice, is what you will do! If you have not practiced, guess what will happen?

    In my LEO days I learned to always rehearse scenarios... standing in line at the store, playing "what ifs" in your mind. Driving in traffic, sitting in a movie theater or walking the dog. I still do it though not as much. It keeps you more on top of your situational awareness and gives you a sort of "plan template" to fall back on if the "unexpected" should happen.

    Dunno if that is what you meant.
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    Fact of the matter is...people have different thought processes.

    Some can make an decision in a few seconds,others simply cannot and must mull over it and think it over for awhile.

    This isn't necessarily a bad thing, we need those folks to think out every possible scenario there is.

    An example of this is a few people playing the innocent game of Dominoes. One player instantly slaps one down an scores. The next player takes 3 minutes before he plays one. He may score he may not.

    Studies show that people think and perceive things differently.

    As P95 stated, shoot slow and die or shoot to fast and spend the rest of your fortune in court.

    Really, all that we can hope for is to do the best we can do and live through then encounter long enough to be able to critique ourselves and try to improve.

    However, if are dead we cant do that. There lies the real problem.

    and..Cruel Hand Luke, that is an exellent post. Most of the LEO training films that I've seen will pretty much verify everything that you have stated. Body language and being able to interpret it is the key and that dictates the rest of the action .
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    Does anyone else wonder - about that fraction of time within which they have to make a decision - it concerns me - always has.

    Training can be top notch - and that will probably aid speed of response and accuracy etc - ergo a win situation if decision good but ......... the way things can go down even with best con yellow etc ...... that minute time frame in which we have to respond .. how do we get it right?

    I always counter scenarios folks come up with by ''play it as you see it'' - no one situation is gonna be like another exactly ....... so in thousandths of of a second, maybe, we must try and get it right. Could be if we are too slow we are toast - but too fast and getting it wrong .. well, again we are toast but, in a court of law with problems!!!

    Just musing once more on the awsome responsibility we carry with us - over and above our sidearm.
    it may seem like it's all reflex, and that you really don't have time to think. that's true to an extent, but there is a strange phenomenon that occurs. it's difficult to describe, but if anyone's been in a bad vehicle accident, it's similar to that.

    time slows down, and you speed up. you become hyper sensitive. you do have thoughts. you do make decisions somewhat. i vividly remember the words "your life is about to change" followed by a feeling that it was right, and that i had to, followed by the permitted reflex of squeezing the trigger. albeit a strange format; a question, an answer, and a decision took place. your memory records everything in great detail. and, it all happens in that millisecond you're talking about.

    the closer you are to the situation, the more pronounced these effects are (i.e. different at 300 yards than it is at 3 feet). i'm not a fan of grossman, but he got the different psychological effects at different distances thing right.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    There are certain "universal" cues that tend to be given off just before an impending criminal assault. And though not all situations are the same, they often will contain similar elements. If we learn what to look for it greatly cuts the time down that it takes to make decisions. :
    Cruel Hand Luke, excellent post above on a topic that is hard to explain even after you've been on the sharp end of this stick several times.

    Amazing so few folks have heard of or use a Fence ... even tho it is natural once practiced.
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    Question

    Interesting thread and made even more interesting by the posing from Cruel Hand Luke.

    A side thought/question.
    Does anybody know the actual amount of "time lost" in a Startle Response where a person will reactively freeze when caught totally unaware and off guard?
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Does anybody know the actual amount of "time lost" in a Startle Response where a person will reactively freeze when caught totally unaware and off guard?
    I can't speak from a researched point of view but I know in real life it seems to vary considerably from person to person. In my offshore sailing days when something big happened (thankfully it's pretty rare) it happened fast and required quick actions to mitigate trouble or things could get really ugly. Some people just seemed to freeze and watch events unfold sort of dumbstruck. The ones you wanted on your crew were the ones who could size up a situation in almost an instant and act. Never could figure out who seemed to be a "natural" at it ahead of time. I was paid the compliment of being told I fit the bill by some pretty good old hands.

    I think the same thing applies to what's being discussed here. Some folks react well and some don't. I think training and mental preparedness can help considerably but I'm convinced that the make up of some people can just flat work against them in some circumstances.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    There is not an easy way to cover it all. Training and more training is the best way to go to start with.
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    I think we should practice speed of draw and accuarcy of fire, but train on when to draw.

    When is the critical factor, when the BG gives you that opening you need......when you are sure they are a BG etc......

    When need to train on reconizeing the when....
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

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    Thanks to P95Carry for the thread and Cruel Hand Luke for his post as well. I am new to CC yet I have been thinking on this. How to respond, when, etc. Studies have been done on pro baseball players and their physical reaction times to pitches while in the batter's box. They literally do not have enough time to react (swing the bat and hit the ball) from the time the pitch leaves the pitcher's hand to the time it crosses the plate. What they do is anticipate the pitch and begin their stride and swing as the pitcher releases the ball. While in motion, they then can adjust their swing to hit the pitch or stop the swing if the pitch is outside the zone. That is the only way they could ever hit a pitch - anticipate and move. Watch them, they make their move on every pitch. I need to learn the cues Cruel Hand Luke mentions so I can anticipate and move correctly in street situations.

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