Would it make a difference?

This is a discussion on Would it make a difference? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If carry were allowed everywhere, things like this would still happen. But, the number of times where it was stopped would increase as well. And, ...

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Thread: Would it make a difference?

  1. #16
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    If carry were allowed everywhere, things like this would still happen. But, the number of times where it was stopped would increase as well. And, for those of us here, it would sure help us quite a bit. We can't protect everyone all of the time, but we should at least be given the opportunity to protect ourselves.
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    It's long past time that we at least let people have the OPTION.

    It's madness that we keep seeing these things happen at places where the antis are telling us that safety is enhanced by the banning of guns, and no people in real power are standing up and saying, "Wait a minute. If ...THIS is something that can happen in a place with a gun ban, what good is the damned gun ban?"

    We need to be LOUD about this. Gun bans have shown themselves to be 100% USELESS against real evil, several times in very recent memory! How much is it gonna take before this lesson is beat into the head of the antis and more importantly the fence-sitters?
    I understand your possition, but that wasn't the question. I don't think anyone on this forum likes the idea of gun free zones, we wouldn't be here if we did.

    The question is would it make any difference, and if so, how much difference, not whether we like it or not.
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    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    My question is, how much of a differnence would it make if those areas where not restricted to concealed carry of firearms, or would it make a difference at all?

    I am going to use Texas as an example. In Texas only about 260,000 out of 23,000,000 people have concealed carry permits. That is only a bit over 1% of the population. From the information on this forum which by no means is scientific, I am saying that about 1/2 of the concealed carry holders would, (if, the opportunity presented itself, no rambo's here), attempt to stop the threat of a person on a shooting rampage.
    You estimate that 1/2 of the concealed carry holders "would attempt to stop the threat" . . . However, we first must determine what percentage of CHL permit holders actually carry beyond their automobiles. My belief is less than 1/3 of concealed carry permitees (including the so-called "woulds") in Texas carry beyond their automobiles. Thus, the potential armed, ready, and willing Texans is only 1/2 of 1/3 of the 260,000, meaning that there are only 43,333 for the whole state of Texas who are armed, ready, and willing -- or stated otherwise 1/6 of a person per square mile.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    even the slightest differance of one more survivor is immeasurably signifigant. just ask that one persons family.
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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Gunnutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I didn't include the numbers of law enforcement, because in Texas and I am sure most other states, gun free zones do not apply to them when they are off duty. I may be wrong on that, surely someone will correct me.
    I understand that you weren't including law enforcement, my point was that it only took one legally armed individual to slow that shooter down and save lives.
    If we were allowed to legally carry in the malls it would only take one with the will and ablity to do the same thing. Yes, I believe it would make a difference. If the bad guy knew we might be there he might not go at all.
    We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    And, for those of us here, it would sure help us quite a bit. We can't protect everyone all of the time, but we should at least be given the opportunity to protect ourselves.
    much agreed - statistics can be tricky things because they depend upon what we are 'zoomed in' on. If I take a 10,000 ft view of it, the net effect of carry-everywhere is tiny.
    But like with that picture of the Omaha guy with the gun on Drudge.. What ARE the odds I would ever see this at Rosedale Mall here in MN?
    But man, if tomorrow's the day - at least I'd have a chance at protecting my loved ones. My odds go way up and the effect is huge for my family and future generations.
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  8. #22
    Senior Member Array SilenceDoGood's Avatar
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    The real question that needs to be answered is "do shootings happen more often in GFZ's?" Then, satisfied you will be.
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Depending on the laws in your state, I say if you can ignore the GFZ sign do so. Here in Missouri it is not a crime to carry in a posted area. If found out the management must ask you to leave before anything else can happen. If you refuse to leave they can then call local law enforcement who MAY issue you a summons the fine for which cannot exceed $100. If you get three of these during term of you current license you may have your right to carry revoked for 1 year.

    I personally ignore signs at most places. I do obey the rules concerning Federal buildings and state and local government buildings. But when out in the public at the mall, stopping by the hospital or medical office I don't disarm.

    If your state makes it a misdemeanor to carry in posted areas I say it is best to disarm.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    While i cannot state that free ccw would end this type atrocity by disaffected losers, I will observe that here in Colorado our mass shootings have happened in the few places where gun free zones carry the weight of law ( such as high schools ) and not where they are merely a suggestion under tresspass charges if you dont leave when asked such as malls and other businesses . Some folks tried it in a restraunt in denver a while back , but officers enjoying lunch put a quick end to that , I am not sure if they were on duty plain clothes or off duty tho . Point is ( to me at least ) doing away with criminal empowerment zones will do little if any harm and may well do great good .
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by McCarry View Post
    Pardon my simplistic take on the mathematical probabilities, but, it only takes one person to make a difference in these situations. So, in response to the original question posed, I believe the right person in the right place (or wrong place depending upon how you interpret it cosmically) could prevent such tragedies from occurring, or continuing to the level of death and destruction they most often inflict. So, if malls, schools, and other defenseless zones were eliminated, and CCW permit holders were not coerced into disarming themselves, the probability of an armed intervention (as an obvious last resort)would increase beyond the current near nil level.
    I agree, even if only two people in the state had CCW...one of them may have been there.

    How nice it could have been if when the perp opened up on the crowd...that 4 ccw'ers started shooting back, accurately...

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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    How nice it could have been if when the perp opened up on the crowd...that 4 ccw'ers started shooting back, accurately...
    *not picking on you, using this as an example only*

    Ideally, yes... if the gunman is on one side of the store and the mass of people safely secured behind the CCW's line of fire.

    However, we're talking about a crowded store- that's four more guns going off in a crowd of panicked people, some hitting, some missing the intended target, and no guarantee that the ones hitting the target are stopped within his body.

    I'm playing devils advocate here. I think it should be considered that the impact of opening up on a shooter is not always the best way to save the most injuries/lives. In this situation (a department store or mall), there is no way to know what lies seeking cover or shelter beyond your target/downrange.

    Do ya'll think good samaritan laws protect a CCWer who tries to stop a crazed gunman and accidently injures or kills another innocent? This could be said for a VT situation, too- stray bullet passes through the wall and hits a student in the next room... Food for thought.

    I'm not suggesting we roll over and die, just pointing out that there are more factors at play than "have gun, will shoot BGs"

    flame suit on

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Over the past few months with the VA Tech, and the Omaha mall shootings, the forum has been full of scenarios and what if's regarding gun free zones.

    My question is, how much of a differnence would it make if those areas where not restricted to concealed carry of firearms, or would it make a difference at all?

    I am going to use Texas as an example. In Texas only about 260,000 out of 23,000,000 people have concealed carry permits. That is only a bit over 1% of the population. From the information on this forum which by no means is scientific, I am saying that about 1/2 of the concealed carry holders would, (if, the opportunity presented itself, no rambo's here), attempt to stop the threat of a person on a shooting rampage.

    So out of 200 people in a given enviroment, 1 would be willing and able, if the situation presented itself to attempt to stop the killing. Given that the areas of VA Tech and malls and the like are large, the probability of a person with a CCL being in the immediate area of the shootings goes down substantially lower than the 1%.

    Would eliminating gun free zones be able to make an dissernable difference in the number of people that die in situations like this? For the person that has the permit, it is a given, I think we all can agree on that, but for the population as a whole would there be any difference in the numbers of deaths during the few minutes these things play out?

    Based on the numbers, my answer is no, it won't make any difference to the population as a whole, not until there are substantially more individuals with permits.

    Mods, please move if needed. Thanks.
    yes, Texas has 22.9 million people and 247,345 permits.at least half of these people don't carry every day or at all anymore.. i could hardly believe this when i read it last July. sad but true.
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  14. #28
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I agree, even if only two people in the state had CCW...one of them may have been there.

    How nice it could have been if when the perp opened up on the crowd...that 4 ccw'ers started shooting back, accurately...

    Stay armed...stay safe!
    but then the media would say it was a "firefight" and demonise the ccw'ers for protecting those around them. but aside from the media it'd be great. as for the media "theres no truth in the news and no news in the truth"
    "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I'm not suggesting we roll over and die, just pointing out that there are more factors at play than "have gun, will shoot BGs"
    A wise post . along with yours ill don my asbestos undies and ask what are the chances you and 3 other ccw holders will be lined up as at a range .. when things go south , bodys are bleeding out , and you see a fella shooting a pistol just what are you going to do ?
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  16. #30
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    Suicide by cop is one thing, but getting mowed down by granny just doesn't do much for your blaze of glory!
    I tend to agree. While it's hard to believe there would be any deterrent effect on a deranged mind, I think that one or two news stories of self defense may cause someone to premeditate a little longer on where to choose to rampage.

    And we are discussing this as third parties because we weren't there.

    What if the sales clerk in front of the elevator had carried, drawn, and fired back? Short story. Once hit, continuing to draw fire reduces your odds of making it, but also reduces the number of rounds fired at anyone else while advancing the time for LEOs to respond.

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