Would it make a difference?

[cray]

It's long past time that we at least let people have the OPTION.

It's madness that we keep seeing these things happen at places where the antis are telling us that safety is enhanced by the banning of guns, and no people in real power are standing up and saying, "Wait a minute. If ...THIS is something that can happen in a place with a gun ban, what good is the damned gun ban?"

We need to be LOUD about this. Gun bans have shown themselves to be 100% USELESS against real evil, several times in very recent memory! How much is it gonna take before this lesson is beat into the head of the antis and more importantly the fence-sitters?

I think that 'bout covers it. Well said.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[cray]

*not picking on you, using this as an example only*

Ideally, yes... if the gunman is on one side of the store and the mass of people safely secured behind the CCW's line of fire.

However, we're talking about a crowded store- that's four more guns going off in a crowd of panicked people, some hitting, some missing the intended target, and no guarantee that the ones hitting the target are stopped within his body.

I'm playing devils advocate here. I think it should be considered that the impact of opening up on a shooter is not always the best way to save the most injuries/lives. In this situation (a department store or mall), there is no way to know what lies seeking cover or shelter beyond your target/downrange.

Do ya'll think good samaritan laws protect a CCWer who tries to stop a crazed gunman and accidently injures or kills another innocent? This could be said for a VT situation, too- stray bullet passes through the wall and hits a student in the next room... Food for thought.

I'm not suggesting we roll over and die, just pointing out that there are more factors at play than "have gun, will shoot BGs"

flame suit on

No flames here; I don't think we as a group would like to have a firefight with dozens of rounds crisscrossing through the crowd. But, consider this. The would-be killer fires a few shots and then starts looking for more victims. Before he can single someone out, he takes a couple of near misses or maybe even a hit from some distance. He may not even know exactly where the shots came from. Think that may drastically alter his little game? While he's looking for cover, odds are good people who may have died, may keep on living.

[jbailey]

If we were allowed to legally carry in the malls it would only take one with the will and ablity to do the same thing. Yes, I believe it would make a difference. If the bad guy knew we might be there he might not go at all.

+1 here! The BG planning such an attack wouldn't know whether there were armed citizens near, if CCW was allowed. He would have that to consider - and of course we would probably never know, but maybe it would deter some from action.

I do realize that in order to help, a CCW'er would have to be in the right place at the right (wrong) time.

One thing is for sure - banning the occasional CCW citizen does nothing to help keep the BG's in line.

I hope the corporate suits will wise up

Jim

[ccw9mm]

My question is, how much of a differnence would it make if those areas where not restricted to concealed carry of firearms, or would it make a difference at all?

It will make a difference to the extent people take advantage of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

It will all depend on a dramatically higher percentage of people carrying, and that higher percentage carrying where you are. At that moment, there are more "mines" in the "minefield."

Two percent of a state's population having CHL's means that only a fraction of the people in any venue are carrying at any time. At 20%, then I'd say we'll begin to see a difference in safety.

[ethereal]

The last two shootings in Colorado Springs were self defense. Liquor store owner will not be prosecuted (took nearly 48 hours for DA to decide) for shooting in self defense during an armed robbery attempt. Second occurred when an restraining order failed to keep a husband who threatened the wife's life at bay. As of Wednesday, she has not been arrested... not sure if a final decision has been made by the DA. These were one-on-one situations. The good guys had weapons and were able to save their own lives.

The mall shooting, and most GFZ shoointgs, must be viewed as a different situation since there are so many more bystanders that can be killed by errant or through-and-through rounds. Add the fact that you are in a big place with lots of people... SA becomes tougher.

I carry fragmenting "home-defense" rounds at home and in public. I practice with my carry gun - and still need to spend more time at the range. I feel I'm more mentally prepared to handle a confrontation by talking my way out of it or, if need be, making a flight-or-fight decision.

A lot of mental prep comes from reading the thoughtful musings of members here. My situational awareness has certainly been improved over the past year since I joined.

I mention this because, to a person, the folks from the mall said it took several moments to minutes, to realize that the sounds they heard were gunshots - a threat. And, six minutes is long time.

None of this is easy and situations such as VT and the mall shooting do not lend themselves to easy answers. More citizens able to defend themselves is a good thing. Willing is another matter: there are too many variables, and too much stress, to predict the behavior of individuals in the group. I agree that fewer GFZ would lead to fewer unopposed shootings... but you can't stop them from happening. IMO.

[BMack]

Does anyone remember the details of the incident at the Tacoma mall in WA a few years ago? A licensed CCWer stood up to a shooter but I think instead of just shooting the freak he challenged him and got shot for his troubles with permanent crippling damage.

[politicalgeek]

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/highprofile/

Brady's map of high profile shootings. Draw your own conclusions, but look at where all the little dots are...

[Greg in VA]

even the slightest differance of one more survivor is immeasurably signifigant. just ask that one persons family.

[peacefuljeffrey]

I understand your possition, but that wasn't the question. I don't think anyone on this forum likes the idea of gun free zones, we wouldn't be here if we did.

The question is would it make any difference, and if so, how much difference, not whether we like it or not.

Then my answer is YES, it would make a difference, once in a while, when the bad guy happened to try his evil act in a place where there was one or more CCWers!

How often that chance encounter would occur, no one can say.

Just imagine that anyone cowering in a dressing room in a mall shop is cowering there with a GUN AIMED AT THE DOOR, waiting for the moment the bad guy steps through. That would make a ******* difference, wouldn't you say?

[peacefuljeffrey]

The real question that needs to be answered is "do shootings happen more often in GFZ's?" Then, satisfied you will be.

Actually, it's well-known, but almost never discussed in the mainstream media or by elected officials, that they happen almost exclusively in GFZs!!

[cray]

Can anyone give an "average" ratio of LEOs to citizens in say ... a population of 100,000? I know, it'll be a swag at best. My point is, even though CCW holders in any given municipality are a small percentage of the whole, they very likely give whackos more than triple the number of LEOs to be concerned about.

Suspect that's why crime in general goes down as the number of CCW permits issued goes up. Everyone benefits when a handful see fit to accept the responsibility.

Have a good weekend foks;

cray

[SIXTO]

Can anyone give an "average" ratio of LEOs to citizens in say ... a population of 100,000? I know, it'll be a swag at best.

Sure I can... about 2 sworn officers per 1000 of population. That doesnt mean working at any given time, it just means thats what the average city employs.

[JxMxFxPx]

I don't think it would make vfery much difference at all.
Most people ignore "gun free zone" postings anyway...

[kentuckycarry]

I know several people that have permits and NONE of them carry. They only carry when they go on a trip.. Go figure. The BG's are only on the highway or "out of town". But then I go to Walmart here and see people printing quite often. I always felt if something goes down in Walmart there's going to be atleast a couple people there to do something..
The pount is, there is not a chance of doing anything if the mall is posted, but there is atleast a chance someone will be there and do something about it if ccw is allowed. The situation would have to be just right for most to react and feel they could do something. It's a needle in a haystack..( so far).

[4sfed]

I don't think it would make vfery much difference at all.
Most people ignore "gun free zone" postings anyway...

The BG's do notice. I got this information from another forum on DefensiveCarry.com . . . "It can't happen to me!"

In the early '90s, when Florida became a "SHALL ISSUE" state, violent crime started dropping, at least against Fla citizens. Crime against foreign visitors increased, since criminals knew they were unarmed. Florida eventually stopped rental car companies from putting stickers, or any thing indication that it was a rental car, on the vehicle. People don't think that concealed carry doesn't cut down on crime? They're nuts.