You can lead a horse to water...but they will not understand why.

This is a discussion on You can lead a horse to water...but they will not understand why. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Tonight by pure chance alone my wife and I got into a discussion toward CCW. This is rare as we do not agree at all ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35

Thread: You can lead a horse to water...but they will not understand why.

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781

    You can lead a horse to water...but they will not understand why.

    Tonight by pure chance alone my wife and I got into a discussion toward CCW.

    This is rare as we do not agree at all on this subject and as such at this stage it's just not generally discussed.
    Tonight was different though as she wanted to talk to me about how I took my sisters husband to the range this weekend and in the process educated him on the 2nd amendment, firearms, and self defense as being the most basic of human rights.

    Several words were stated and then she said to me;
    "Why do you carry everywhere we go?!!...When has there been a time when the GG with a gun has worked out?!! What if the other person has a gun!"

    With that I turned to my laptop (we were in my home office) and I went to ABCNews.com and said to her; "Yesterday".
    She seeing all the text on the screen replied I don't want to read all that.

    Five minutes later unbeknownst to me prior there is an interview of Ms. Assam who stopped the shooter in Colorado Springs on CNN along with the church pastor. My TV just happened to be on and it was set to CNN because that's what I listen to during the day while working. That or XM radio.
    So anyway we both went quiet listening to the lady talk and the pastor explain how if she wasn't there then the possibility for far more people would have been injured if not killed.

    We talked for another hour and even after that she remains a staunch unbeliever.
    She feels the "odds" are so long toward being victimized by crime that its not worth it to be concerned about, and thus she doesn't.
    Long odds amongst our community, the state we live in, and the country overall. Her words not mine.
    I replied well what about the people who by bad luck happen to fall outside those odds that are left to hold the bag?
    What do you say to them the injured, those who are maimed for a lifetime, or the families of those who happen to die?

    Her response; The odds for most people at most places are not high.
    Not high enough to "worry" about.

    I've known my wife 15 yrs. now.
    She's a nice lady.
    I believe she is a good representation of what many regular Americans are thinking and feeling.
    It's not going to happen to them.
    What are the odds?
    If it does happen well then it was your time.

    Folks who "worry" about as much and who, like her husband, keep and carry guns are paranoid or silly or have the same 'odds' as anyone else who is not armed. Guns are bad and bad/crazy people who use them are worst.

    After tonights conversation I am now convinced that the saying "Guns don't hurt people, people do" will never work.
    I am now also convinced that showing people of this mindset facts, figures, statements of 'odds' from any source no matter how esteemed the compiler might be, statements of real world events happening to real world shiny bright persons (as opposed to dirty faced and/or those from the 'inner city')...and by me ~ 15yrs. of discussion will not overcome their own thinking.

    It's kind of like that old saying; "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".

    I don't know much of anything about horses. I'm from the 'inner city'.
    If I'd been shot or victimized by crime would likely have been by my wife looked at and shrugged off as being as an unfortunate dirty faced person who fell outside the odds.
    Had I been an otherwise perceived to be shiny bright person then I'd be just another poor soul who fell outside the odds. Wrong place, wrong time. Too bad for me. Strange how I fell outside the odds.

    Click...turn the channel to 'What Not to Wear' starring Stacy & Clinton

    Until something bad happens directly to these individual persons they then will _maybe_ have a change of heart.
    At then I'd bet Jimmy The Greek would place odds at 50/50.
    They could either think to themselves hey damn if I had some means to defend and protect myself then maybe I'd have not been victimized.
    Or they could fall to criminals and crime sucks and those darn guns they are all over the place and if it weren't for the bad guns and the even badder criminals then me/mine would not have been victimized.

    It's all about the odds.
    As a matter of fact toward odds for those still reading this post here they are which my wife asked I send to her and to be honest I'm not sure I'm going to do as the odds are great the effort will be a waste of time...

    * Total crime victims (most recent) by country - 21.1% (#15)
    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-total-victims
    Data source: UNICRI (United Nations Interregional Crime and Justice Research Institute). 2002. Correspondence on data on crime victims. March. Turin

    * Rate per 100K per inhabitants | 469.2 per 100,000 inhabitants
    Data source: Data Source: 2005 FBI Report of Offenses Known to Law Enforcement | http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html
    Note: the 2006 UCR reports are not yet complete toward reporting.

    * Violent crime (per capita) (most recent) by state - 0.46 per 100 people
    http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri...ent-per-capita
    Source - Bureau of Justice Statistics | http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonl...ystatelist.cfm

    * All Violent Crime [My specific town in MA which is where my wife grew age 2 through college] - Is 0.54 times the National Average
    Data Source: 2003 FBI Report of Offenses Known to Law Enforcement | http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/01cius.htm followed by http://www.fbi.gov/filelink.html?fil...xl/01tbl08.xls

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Member
    Array GBS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Central California
    Posts
    468
    "Her response; The odds for most people at most places are not high."

    A mall
    A church.

    A few years ago you could not get me to touch a hand gun.
    I hunted with my father, but never used a handgun.

    The change is internal. I do not think 'The News' is what changed my views. It was just observing how people have become less civil, more willing to take something than to ask for help. More 'me' centric.

    I can't think of one way to convince another person to carry. I know I will not try. If someone asks about it I will inform, but not encourage. It's a slow internal process, lots of 'walls' have to come down, outsiders can't do the demolition.

    Ideas are like seeds, they are planted, and if the soil is receptive it will grow.

  4. #3
    Distinguished Member
    Array SleepingZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    ne
    Posts
    1,737
    Until the odds are 100% in my favor, guess what---I'm going to pack.


    Z
    An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Arid Zone A
    Posts
    1,561
    If the odds for most people are low, then the need for any gun control laws are low as well, right? She can't have it both ways.

    There are any of a number of things that are unlikely, yet people avoid them. Your chances of being struck by lightning, bitten by a poisonous snake, attacked by a shark are all low, but people prudently avoid those things happening. Low probability, high consequence events get attention all the time, so why not golf in thunderstorms, go hiking barefoot in rattlesnake habitats or swimming in the ocean when sharks have been spotted?

    She doesn't want the world to be a place that needs good guys to carry guns, so she just irrationally denies the facts. Hopefully nothing too bad has to happen to her (or someone she knows) before she changes her mind.

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    1,233
    I think Jethro Tull said it best. "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think."

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    BTW for the record I've never tried to convince her toward concealed carry.

    I've been working on guns are not bad, people are bad.
    And that I do not carry to be a 'hero' nor wanna be cop nor get my face/name in the paper and do interviews on Larry King live nor to feel cool/manly nor do I do so because I walk around in life in fear that at any moment the boogie man might jump me from behind and nor do I do so because of any statements of 'odds' and/or statistics.

    AutoFan many times past and tonight I've taken the same tack as you suggest. Like why do we wear seatbelts, have fire extinguisher, smoke detectors, health, dental, & life insurances, etc. ad. infinitum.
    It doesn't work. Not just with her but others of her camp as well.
    They see me, and us, as being as illogical to their own logic as we see them from our own.

    I'm done.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    KY
    Posts
    1,443
    Janq,

    Sounds like so many conversations I have had with my sister and brother in law. They just don't get it. The world is a happy place coated with sugar.

    Reminds me of the sheep. (No, I don't want to get into the whole sheep thing here. If you don't like sheep then insert zebra or whatever)

    Everyone has their heads down and are focused on their little patch of grass. Ok, so the wolf grabs one of the herd. "at least it wasn't me... must have been their time to go... maybe they got too close to the edge of the herd and were easy prey. Must have been asking for it."

    It's like so many other things in our society. Others are being hurt, but it's not happening to me so... I'll just change the channel and it will go away.

    My goal is not to be the sad story on the news. If I have to be on the news then I want to be the one that survived.

    Hopefully these folks (your wife included) will live out and long and happy life with no worry of harm or the need to protect themselves, but the wolf gets hungry and he will get a few of them.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

    -- Theodore Roosevelt --

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,407
    Quote Originally Posted by BIG E View Post
    Janq,

    Everyone has their heads down and are focused on their little patch of grass. Ok, so the wolf grabs one of the herd. "at least it wasn't me... must have been their time to go... maybe they got too close to the edge of the herd and were easy prey. Must have been asking for it."

    It's like so many other things in our society. Others are being hurt, but it's not happening to me so... I'll just change the channel and it will go away.
    Great analogy!

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,006
    Fire extinguisher, because the odds, while "long", aren't great enough to mean fires at home don't happen.

    Life insurance, because the odds, however remote, don't cover reality.

    Candles and matches, because the practice, quaint and throwback as it may seem, is an effective one for the rare time when the whole power grid is on the fritz.

    Locks on the doors, a strong steel door/frame on the house, alarm system, firearm, training and mindset ... because, in the final analysis, criminals don't give a pile of gnat dung for the lives of innocents. As relatively rare as such incidents may be, they never will.

    Insurance (fire extinguisher, life policy, locks, self-defense tools): seemingly ridiculous and a waste, until the foreseen happens to you, specifically. At which point, there are no good alternatives.

    Pixie dust, wishes or prayers: On the instant of an attack, none of these can be relied upon to bend to our instant need. To have such an expectation relies upon the longest of odds that have ever been. Another choice, any choice, is preferable, if the expectation is to survive the situation healthy and whole.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #10
    Member Array nuparadigm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    162
    I'm sure that you do this already, but ...... just love her for who she is right now and not for who she could change into being.
    The Edge ... there's no honest way to describe it. The only ones who know where it is have gone over.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    OKC; by way of St. Mayberry, GA
    Posts
    4,750
    My wife does not like handguns......she's not all that keen on my hunting long guns. She does accept that I carry and she has born witness to me having to employ my sidearm once, and another time in the fog of fear with a 'someone' outside my daughters window......"where's you gun, you have it?" She's even confessed the comfort knowing that I have my 'buddy' with me (us).
    People she dosn't know, other's out and about carrying make her nervous.....she's 'made' a few people in the past....seen those who OC (legal here in Ga.).....but she's starting to see there are others like me (and us here) who choose to pack around the responsability and accept it. One of my best friends is a local LEO.....our daughters go to school together, we hang out together when we can.....and he asked her what she'd do if something bad went down while I was deployed and he or the other shift cops couldn't get there in under two minutes? That made her think a little...........
    Me nor my LEO buddy don't try to convince her of anything too often, but years of thought provoking has lightened her mind of the 'dangers' of guns and 'opened' her mind to the 'dangers' of other, not-so-good people. She's thought enough to look past her "little patch of grass" and has taken down some of her walls she's built up. If my wife didn't like it and wouldn't choose to think any other way, that'd be fine too. When we met she knew I came 'heeled' and that it's a package deal with me.
    Perhaps your wife will never 'want' to see what we see or 'know' what we know, and perhaps she will, one day, conclude 'we' are right and become more acceptant of it. Either way she's got you around and accepts you......that's a good start even if she never looks past her acceptance of you and your sidearm.
    Last edited by goldshellback; December 11th, 2007 at 07:12 AM. Reason: oops
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    @ Wits' End
    Posts
    2,802
    We live on the E Coast of FL near the Space Center on a barrier island, 5 blocks from the ocean at an elevation of 15 feet. In 150 years they had NEVER had a hurricane.

    When 1 was looking like it would hit, I was specifically told, "We have never had a hurricane. That is why NASA picked this spot." We don't need shutters. We don't need to evacuate (prediction of 14' storm surge). We don't need generators.

    Twice in Sept., 2004, we got hit. Lots of wind damage, lots of blue roofs, people who lost homes. No power for nearly a week.

    'They' were right for 150 years.

    I bought plywood and boarded up. We evacuated due to potential storm surge. We bought a generator. May never need it. I hope we don't again. But, it turns out we did.

    Sorry, I know I'm preaching to the choir.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array MNBurl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,022
    Tell her it is an insurance policy against something bad. Just like fire insurance... "We can save a ton a money a year it we don't have to pay for fire insurance... It is so very unlikely we will ever need it!"

    She will say, "It is not the same thing!"

    You should say, "Yeah, you are more likely to get raped, assaulted or killed! Than have the house burn down!" Show here the likelyhood of a Fire vs rape vs assaulted or killed.

    "My carrying is just a insurance against bad people and evens the odds that I/we will be able to live a long life and grow old together. Don't you want to grow old together?!"

    And/Or

    "It is my job to protect our family and I choose to carry the best tool to do that... my handgun."

    Hope this helps!
    MNBurl

    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    2,087
    I fear that you have a long and perhaps unwinnable battle of ice skating uphill.

    I wish you the best and that most people weren't like your wife. I guess everyone can't be prepared though.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  16. #15
    VIP Member
    Array goawayfarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Fork Union, Virginia
    Posts
    2,690
    Sadly the only way most anti's turn pro...is to be a victim.............
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Please help to understand.
    By Mikey in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: November 19th, 2008, 09:27 PM
  2. Pale Horse Holsters Lead Times
    By MikeV99 in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: July 2nd, 2008, 07:25 PM
  3. Water heater tanks for water storage for emergencies...
    By Tangle in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: April 9th, 2008, 07:39 AM
  4. Lead a horse to water?
    By packinnova in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: September 15th, 2007, 04:39 PM
  5. water, water everywhere but not a drop to drink...
    By artz in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: April 12th, 2006, 05:12 PM

Search tags for this page

is you can lead a horse to water but true

,
you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make the water not rape it
Click on a term to search for related topics.