Jeanne Assam's Performance in Colorado Church Shooting: MERGED - Page 4

Jeanne Assam's Performance in Colorado Church Shooting: MERGED

This is a discussion on Jeanne Assam's Performance in Colorado Church Shooting: MERGED within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's too bad that there will probably never be an official, this-is-the-exact-truth-of-every-aspect-of-what-happened story for us to eventually read. Who fired how many rounds from what ...

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Thread: Jeanne Assam's Performance in Colorado Church Shooting: MERGED

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    It's too bad that there will probably never be an official, this-is-the-exact-truth-of-every-aspect-of-what-happened story for us to eventually read.

    Who fired how many rounds from what gun, what happened first, next, last, etc. etc. etc. If you read 10 news stories about this event, you will probably get at least 8 different accounts. But there exists no ONE discrete agency that will be the final say, definitively, of exactly how it all went down.

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Lets get to back to the thread title; performance.

    How many here would, as the scenario apparently unfolded, walk down the BG without cover, while he had multiple weapons, and was returning fire?
    I'd say that was tactically risky and not the best idea. We'll never know whether it was (or was not) the only way to get the job done, but I'd like to think that I'd have fired from the cover of those columns that were mentioned by that blustery "combat veteran" guy who tried to bum a gun off one of the frozen security volunteers. I don't think that firing from cover would have been "cowardly" (in contrast to her doing the walk-right-up-to-him thing)--rather, I think it would have been far more prudent.


    On another note, the Vietnam vet that took cover behind a column that turned out to be faux; bullet went right on through. Are we ready to assess our cover under fire?
    Regardless of how good that cover is at stopping bullets, it's better than being full-front to the shooter; it may take some velocity and foot-pounds off the bullets, and it will obscure you from his view. Much harder to hit a target when you have to estimate where it might be behind a cover object, yes?


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array Pitmaster's Avatar
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    What is more relevant is that she shot and the threat was stopped. What's to say that the fatal shot while being self-inflicted could have been a negligent discharge or a reflex action while the gun was pointed at his head while falling, hitting the ground, etc. I tend to think that a wounded person would be more likely to shoot back vs. shooting themselves in an active gunfight. If there is a lull in the shooting I can see the suicide scenario as being a more likely possibility.
    Pitmaster

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    HAGAR: To sign a peace treaty with the King of England.
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  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Maybe I missed it...but I am still curious what she was carrying, range and type bullets...to hit several times and he was still functioning

    I also see another swipe at assault type weapons coming...if not the weapon...the bullets...

    Rick

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    It's too bad that there will probably never be an official, this-is-the-exact-truth-of-every-aspect-of-what-happened story for us to eventually read.

    Who fired how many rounds from what gun, what happened first, next, last, etc. etc. etc. If you read 10 news stories about this event, you will probably get at least 8 different accounts. But there exists no ONE discrete agency that will be the final say, definitively, of exactly how it all went down.
    I don't know PJ but I would expect that Massad Ayoob will most likely do a good write up of this one in the Ayoob Files in American Handgunner by the end of 2008. I look forward to reading it.

    As for the reports that this scum bag punched his own ticket....who cares. Would he have done that, at that moment, with out first killing many more people in that church if Ms. Assam had not performed the way she did under fire? I think not.
    She saved countless lives and performed perfectly. Walking calmly towards the threat, firing all the while she ended the fight and brought the shooter down. She is a true hero in every sense of the word.

    I too am noticing a trend to now downplay her role as it has become known that she was not a professional security person or LEO of some type. Now that the main stream media has learned that she is just one of us lowly ccw holding gun nuts, they must play up the fact that the scum bag killed himself with a shot to the head. I have even noticed the stories about the shooting have started to omit Ms. Assam completely in favor of just mentioning her as "a volunteer security staff member". It's disgraceful.

    This woman is a true hero who served her fellow man to the highest order by protecting their lives from the wolf who was there to kill as many of them as he could by his own admission. The fact that she is now being marginalized is a travesty and the media should be ashamed.
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  5. #50
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitmaster View Post
    What is more relevant is that she shot and the threat was stopped. What's to say that the fatal shot while being self-inflicted could have been a negligent discharge or a reflex action while the gun was pointed at his head while falling, hitting the ground, etc. I tend to think that a wounded person would be more likely to shoot back vs. shooting themselves in an active gunfight. If there is a lull in the shooting I can see the suicide scenario as being a more likely possibility.
    Actually the BG shooting themselves in a situation like this is not unusual. We had a situation here in town a couple of years ago where a guy walked into his work place and shot it up. If fled the scene and was confronted by an LEO in from of the PD. The officer engaged the BG. As the BG lay on the ground wounded he turned his gun on himself and saved the tax payers a lot of money.

    Jeanne did what she had to. What's more she did what needed to be done. You can argue about whether her tactic was the best, but it worked.

    I suspect the BG was so shocked to be confronted by an armed and shooting person where he thought he would have a turkey shoot, his aim was no longer that good. Remember she was hitting with the rounds she was throwing at him. It's not so easy to concentrate on a target that is shooting back at you and causing you great pain.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitalexplr View Post
    It's not so easy to concentrate on a target that is shooting back at you and causing you great pain.
    ...and THAT my friends, is why these cowards are able to do what they do in "gun-free zones". These zones have proven time and time again they do not work--except to jam up someone who made a mistake when dropping their kid off at school or carry in a place that has a gun-buster sign (that has legal weight).

    "gun free zone" signs have no purpose, unless they are made of 3/4" steel to be used for cover.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  7. #52
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    It's too bad that there will probably never be an official, this-is-the-exact-truth-of-every-aspect-of-what-happened story for us to eventually read.
    Hopefully it will make the Ayoob Files, in which case I will take his account as being as close as we'll ever get to the truth...

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I'd say that was tactically risky and not the best idea...I don't think that firing from cover would have been "cowardly" (in contrast to her doing the walk-right-up-to-him thing)--rather, I think it would have been far more prudent.
    Agreed.

    BTW folks should know that when they see columns on a building unless they are made of poured and reinforced concrete or marble they are most likely going to be hollow center decoratives. Inside the hollowed out section may be a steel structural pole several inches around.

    Below is an example of what I'm trying to describe...



    Around this would be installed hollow pre-formed cast concrete, or as at my own 19th century home two halves of wood, or as at my local shopping mall plastic halves joined and buttoned tight at the top & bottom with screws.
    Pistol ammo nevermind a shotgun or rifle projectile(s) would rip right through a column which often are nothing but a veneer.

    Columns generally are concealment not hard cover.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  9. #54
    Member Array accordioncowboy's Avatar
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    The New Life Church Shooting Incident: Jeanne Assam's Handgun, Caliber, Hits

    Morning all! Glad there's been so much productive discussion of Jeanne Assam and her heroic stopping of a potential massacre at New Life Church.

    I'm using spare time at work to research some basic questions that are emerging. In this post, I consider "What Handgun Did Jeanne Assam Use?"

    Scanning the posts here, and the ongoing media, here are my takeaways...

    http://shootingmessengers.blogspot.c...-new-life.html

    People across the Internets are asking what handgun, caliber, etc that Jeanne Assam used.

    http://blog.robballen.com/archive/20...makes-you.aspx

    If what I heard on the radio this afternoon is correct, there were three armed security people at the church in Colorado Springs. Only one willingly engaged the shooter, calmly walking towards him, firing the entire time. Jeanne Assam fired approximately twelve rounds, and took down someone armed with rifle, shotgun, and pistol and who was reportedly wearing body armor.
    The quote above, and posts here at DC, claim she emptied a single weapon, 12 rounds total, into the perpetrator Mark Murray, which strongly suggests that a semiauto pistol was used by Jeanne Assam.

    I have a hunch that, perhaps, Jeanne Assam opted to personally carry a weapon similar to the firearm she would have been assigned while on duty for Minneapolis PD.

    http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/mpdp...-200/3-200.asp

    According to the website for Minneapolis PD, here are the duty firearms for MPD officers:

    "3-206 REQUIRED EQUIPMENT - PRIMARY HANDGUN (03/14/03) (01/27/05) (07/19/07) All sworn MPD employees are required to carry a primary handgun while in uniform.

    • Beretta semi-automatic pistols
    • Smith and Wesson semi-automatic pistols
    • Heckler and Koch (HK) semi-automatic pistols
    • Sig-Sauer semi-automatic pistols


    All primary handguns carried by MPD sworn employees must have the following features:

    • Double-action/single-action mechanism with safety-decocking lever for the Beretta, Smith and Wesson and HK.
    • Double-action/single-action mechanism with decocking lever for the Sig-Sauer.
    • Must be one of the currently authorized caliber, 9mm, .40 cal or .45 cal.


    http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/...9/1018/OPINION

    The report above, released today, repeats that Murray...

    • was struck multiple times "by a security officer" aka Jeanne Assam
    • shot himself in the head


    Prior reports stated that Murray...

    • was armed with a shotgun
    • shot himself in the head with his shotgun


    However, it appears that current reports are backing away, or at least omitting, which weapon Mark Murray shot himself with.

    Speculation aside, the El Paso County Coroner's Office report would contain these details.

    I suspect, as others have noted here, that this incident will be the focus of much forensic analysis. Paging Messrs. Ayoob and Fackler! :)

    Next: The Anti Gun Mudslinging Has Begun!

    AC

  10. #55
    Member Array accordioncowboy's Avatar
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    Denver Post: Jeanne Assam Used 9mm Pistol, Hit Murray 3 Times

    http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7696167

    COLORADO SPRINGS Matthew Murray, the gunman who killed four people at two religious organizations Sunday, shot himself in the head with a 9mm pistol as a security officer fired at him at New Life Church.

    The El Paso County coroner's office ruled the death of Murray, 24, a suicide.

    Security officer Jeanne Assam, 42, shot Murray three times twice in the thigh and once in the wrist before Murray turned a gun on himself, according to Colorado Springs police Lt. Skip Arms. Sources said Assam was armed with a 9mm pistol, and she fired numerous shots at Murray.

    Murray carried 1,000 rounds of ammunition in magazines he kept in a backpack. He also wore a vest with sleeves that held additional magazines filled with bullets. A gun belt was strapped to his leg. Sources said Murray carried a Bushmaster AR-15 a rifle style often used by military and law-enforcement personnel and two 9mm handguns.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Wow...This boy came prepared and ready to throw down.

    Where did he get this ammo and armament from?
    At todays prices securing 1K rds. of anything other than .22LR is going to cost a paycheck.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    Well, obviously he wasn't going to need that paycheck for anything else...

    -john

  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Wow...This boy came prepared and ready to throw down.

    Where did he get this ammo and armament from?
    At todays prices securing 1K rds. of anything other than .22LR is going to cost a paycheck.

    - Janq
    Ditto...it would of been a blood bath. After the OKC bombing...the selling of massive amounts of fertilizer is highly controlled and tracked. As I stated previously...assault rifle and ammo will come under renewed and heavy attack as a means by the antis to cure the symptom instead of the disease...

    Rick

  14. #59
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    Jeanne Assam: The Mudslinging Begins

    I suspect that the overwhelming heroics of Jeanne Assam will be immediately and rightfully acknowledged by people of common sense around the world...

    And this will not be tolerated by sheltered, progressive, clueless elites who are shocked, angry, and vengeful that a citizen, a woman, and a religious Christian could be capable of such heroism.

    Within 24 hours, mainstream media were reporting "background" about Jeanne Assam, of little relevance to the New Life Church shooting, focusing on her employment history at MPD...

    http://cbs4denver.com/local/Jeanne.A....2.608920.html

    Guard Who Shot Gunman Fired From Minneapolis Force
    By Amy Forliti, AP Writer MINNEAPOLIS (AP) ― The security guard credited with bravery for shooting a gunman at a Colorado church was fired from her job as a Minneapolis police officer in the 1990s for lying, Minneapolis police officials said Tuesday... Sgt. Jesse Garcia, a Minneapolis police spokesman, said Tuesday that Assam worked at the department from March 1993 to November 1997, when she was fired for lying during an internal investigation. Sgt. John Delmonico, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, said police were investigating a complaint that Assam swore at a bus driver while she was handling an incident on a city bus. Delmonico said Assam was dealing with an incident on the bus and for some reason she swore at the bus driver as she exited the bus. The bus driver became angry and filed a complaint. "In giving a statement about the incident, she was untruthful and she was fired," Delmonico said. The swearing was caught on tape, he said. "The union arbitrated the case and the arbitrator upheld the termination."
    To which 99.99% of humanity politely says... SO WHAT?

    The rest of the mudslinging is primarily from "progressive" blogs, focusing on (I kid you not)...

    • Jeanne Assam is a lesbian (she's 42 and never married, get it?)
    • Jeanne Assam is a fake christian
    • Jeanne Assam is christian nutcase
    • Jeanne Assam offends feminism because she gave credit to God, not herself, her training, her womynhood, etc.


    Frankly, I love it that, according to liberals, everyone on Earth absolutely has to "respect" and "tolerate" every lifestyle under the sun... until someone pisses off the liberal elite... at which time liberals see fit to throw the same snarky, sniggering gay-bashing mud that they claim to despise!

    Don't take my word for it. The blog below conveniently collects up the reservoir of smarmy liberal comments...

    http://www.newspeakblog.com/the_blog...-assam-go.html

    When you get sick of liberal bashing of God, guns, guts, gays, women, and the general concept of heroism in general, I suggest you watch Jeanne Assam speaking for herself via the many YOUTUBE videos coming online each day...

    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...y=jeanne+assam

    The High Road also reports that Jeanne was on Larry King Live as well as Fox News... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=322741

    AC

  15. #60
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    Let's look at that Denver Poop...I mean Post article, shall we? Bold items are OPFOR additions...

    "COLORADO SPRINGS — Matthew Murray, the gunman who killed four people at two religious organizations Sunday, shot himself in the head with a 9mm pistol as a security officer (here we go with the security "officer" thing, right in the first sentence. How is one an "officer" with no pay, no uniform, no badge, no training, no written agreement with the church, no equipment, no nothing?) fired at him at New Life Church.

    The El Paso County coroner's office ruled the death of Murray, 24, a suicide.

    Security officer (in case you didn't catch it the first time, they say it again. Absolutely no mention of the FACT that she was actually an armed citizen and member of the church who volunteered her time to assist with security) Jeanne Assam, 42, shot Murray three times — twice in the thigh and once in the wrist before Murray turned a gun on himself, according to Colorado Springs police Lt. Skip Arms. Sources said Assam was armed with a 9mm pistol, and she fired numerous shots at Murray.

    Murray carried 1,000 rounds of ammunition in magazines he kept in a backpack. He also wore a vest with sleeves (isn't a vest with sleeves better known as a jacket?) that held additional magazines (ok, maybe the author means the vest had pockets or pouches that carried the mags...might those be better words than "sleeves?") filled with bullets (wow, I'm glad they specified that the mags had bullets in them...for a minute I thought they were full of jelly beans). A gun belt was strapped to his leg (man, what have I been thinking all these years? I wear my belt around my waist...silly me...). Sources said Murray carried a Bushmaster AR-15 — a rifle style often used by military and law-enforcement personnel (and tens of thousands of everyday folks) — and two 9mm handguns."

    I must say (if you haven't figured it out already) that I am absolutely disgusted with the majority of the reporting on this incident. I usually take commercial media with a grain of salt - for this one I think I need to drain the Dead Sea...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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