Jeanne Assam's Performance in Colorado Church Shooting: MERGED - Page 5

Jeanne Assam's Performance in Colorado Church Shooting: MERGED

This is a discussion on Jeanne Assam's Performance in Colorado Church Shooting: MERGED within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Some of my musing on this now.... So we have one Mall shooting, perp plans to do mass killing before killing himself and he uses ...

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Thread: Jeanne Assam's Performance in Colorado Church Shooting: MERGED

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Some of my musing on this now....

    So we have one Mall shooting, perp plans to do mass killing before killing himself and he uses an AK. No armed civilians nor armed security of any kind present. Perp then shoots until he feels need to end his own life before perhaps being confronted, or running out of ammo? Misses a lot, Not sure how many he wanted to kill but he shoots till he is done.

    We have one shooting at a Church Campus where the shooter leaves, goes and posts on the internet his plans to do a mass killing, arms himself with (reportedly) 1000 rounds of ammo and three guns (AR and handguns) and some smoke grenades, places the smoke grenades at entrances of a related church to discourage exit and congregate the potential victims. Shoots a few going in. IS confronted and forced to end his own life before being able to achieve whatever his goal was. Not sure how many he would have been looking to kill but one would assume as many as possible in a given time. Came prepared to do so and announced on the internet it would be Massive.

    it is apparent to me that the Church shooter did more planning. And prepared for a larger death toll to occur. He may have even planned further between the two shootings. He had 12 hours to do so. He had more capability with him. He probably would have killed MANY more than the Mall shooter was capable of. They are just darn lucky that the Mall shooters resources were smaller and his planning less skilled.

    Even at that the Church shooter made a big mistake in the first shooting. He tipped off his hand which lead to the failure of his planning at the second place. But only because the Church had a plan and could put it into place and took the threat seriously and did put their plan into action.

    but the church shootings, overall, had the potential to be a much bigger blood bath than the Mall is the way I see it.


  2. #62
    Member Array accordioncowboy's Avatar
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    Potential number of victims in New Life Church

    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    but the church shootings, overall, had the potential to be a much bigger blood bath than the Mall is the way I see it.
    I agree. In the New Life Church scenario, a shooter with multiple weapons, ammo reserves, battle gear, and the stated intent to kill as many people as possible faced group of (reportedly) 7,000 church attendees. That's a recipe for a massacre... stopped by a single armed citizen.

    I am not sure about supermalls, but I doubt a typical mall can amass 7,000 customers. I am also thinking that mall architectural design doesn't have a single great hall full of targets, like New Life Church had.

    I hope that President Bush singles out Jeanne Assam for our thanks as a nation, or perhaps a citation or award. Its due.

    AC

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array rmarkob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by accordioncowboy View Post
    I hope that President Bush singles out Jeanne Assam for our thanks as a nation, or perhaps a citation or award. Its due. AC
    I'd like to see her sitting next to Laura Bush at the State of the Union address next month, and singled out for recognition by the President.

    (AC, you are the spitting image of my BIL - my family is freaking out seeing his face all over your website!)
    Clinging to guns and God in PA...

  4. #64
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    Way to go Ms. Assam!

    Finally, some "positive' press regarding an individual w/ a CCW that used her tool to save lives.

    I grieve for the family of the father & two daughters who were killed.
    It's not about the caliber you carry, it's about how you USE it.

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  5. #65
    New Member Array azmnfordtrk07's Avatar
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    Church

    First of all Ms. Assam is a hero.

    Second of all, I don't question her tactic of walking straight at the shooter firing, she was there it is what she thought right to do. If I would of had to stop someone in church, I would have gone into the center aisle and been on the floor firing between my legs or from the prone position, easy to do by a odd rolling motion from the sitting position in the pew. If I could I would be under the shelter of the pew in aisle, there is a foot or two of overhang that is perfect, lean the gun around, but the pews obstruct and it takes some time getting there. Churches do not have many instances of hard cover and very little concealment.

    The above is one of my plans. I've thought out in this scenario especially since more churches have been getting targeted. The problem from firing from the pew is it isn't really good cover. You are at a disadvantage, you have to pop aim and fire, he has the gun to shoulder and can instantly swing and shoot. The shooter can instantly put a spread into the general area when you have to duck. Then he is not dumb and will be hurrying to run away or increase his tactical advantage by A. shooting more rounds into the pew area, or B. he walks towards you probably firing, to be in a tactical advantage and either over you or until he can see your dead.

    Remember he is killing bystanders you know and love like family and probably your family there as well. I'd rather give my life as a distraction (definitely scoring hits) then let many others die. Done right, and knowing surprise is on my side, with practice I am confident I could get at least double tap off with my 1911 .45 or sig .40. Before incurring return fire, and I am small target on the ground. It is harder to aim down then swing left or right, and he [U]will[U] be getting hit.

    Churches unfortunately are very easy "shoot em up zones" Most beams are fake, and I wouldn't think of taking cover except for concealment there, but there are better ways (if you can't fight back) like hiding under a pew on the floor. But for me its the question of, how do I end this as quickly and as safely for others with my own safety second.

    By that end she did that to a T and scored a bonus of shock to the target that probably saved her from getting hit.

  6. #66
    Member Array Desk Jockey's Avatar
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    az - There are no pews in the hallways or parking lot. Don't rely on them too much.

    From the Colorado Springs Gazette this evening:


    Shooter bought 5 guns in past yearTHE GAZETTE AND ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS
    December 12, 2007 - 5:43PM

    Matthew Murray, who killed four people and wounded five others in attacks on two Christian centers, bought all five of his weapons over the past year from licensed firearms dealers, including one in Colorado Springs.

    Colorado Springs police this afternoon confirmed information provided by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

    Murray had three of the weapons on him when he died at New Life Church in Colorado Springs: A Bushmaster XM 15 assault rifle, purchased Jan. 9 at the Sportsman’s Warehouse at 14140 E. Ellsworth Ave. in Aurora. The average retail price of the firearm is $700 to $800.

    A Beretta .40-caliber semiautomatic handgun, purchased Jan. 4 at Sportsman’s Warehouse at 555 N. Chelton Road in Colorado Springs. While the company would not provide a sale amount, the average price of the firearm is $600.

    A Springfield Armory 9 mm semiautomatic handgun, purchased Sept. 11 at Dave’s Guns, 1842 S. Parker Road in Denver. The average sale price of the firearm is $500 to $700.

    In addition, investigators found an AK-47 assault rifle in the trunk of his car and a Beretta .22-caliber handgun at his Arapahoe County home.

    The AK-47 was purchased Nov. 17 at Robert’s Firearms, 18498 E. Colfax Ave., in Aurora. The Beretta was purchased June 2 at the Aurora Sportsman’s Warehouse.

    Murray purchased all five weapons himself, according to Colorado Springs police.

    At the Sportsman’s Warehouse in Colorado Springs, a store manager referred questions to the company’s corporate headquarters.

    “We are fully cooperating with the authorities who are investigating this horrible tragedy,” Vice President Matt French said today.

    He said sales from both Sportsman’s Warehouse stores followed the law.

    “He bought guns from throughout the area and obviously had to pass a background check every time,” French said.

    Along with the background check, employees must “feel comfortable” about the sale, and nothing raised any alarms, French said.

    Police investigators also said today that Jean Assam, the church security officer who shot and wounded Murray, fired 10 rounds from her Beretta 9 mm semiautomatic handgun.

    Church officials have said the volunteers serving as security guards at the church have all required permits and licenses.

  7. #67
    Member Array MnemonicMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azmnfordtrk07 View Post
    ...I don't question her tactic of walking straight at the shooter firing...Churches do not have many instances of hard cover and very little concealment.
    Precisely why I think she did the right thing. If you don't have cover, you might as well close the distance to the shooter which does three things: increase accuracy, interrupt the gunman's OODA loop (decision/thinking process), and force him on the defensive.

    Not that it necessarily translates into real life, but I've found in video games, it's almost always to your advantage to close on targets for all the above reasons. I'm more successful engaging targets calmly and purposefully than when hastily returning fire and trying to find cover.

    Praise God I've never had to test that in real life!
    "Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am."

  8. #68
    Member Array accordioncowboy's Avatar
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    Rmarkob, my condolences to your BIL :)

    Quote Originally Posted by rmarkob View Post
    (AC, you are the spitting image of my BIL - my family is freaking out seeing his face all over your website!)
    Ha! :)

    Well first, tell your family they're not alone! MY family is freaking out seeing MY face all over my website. :)

    Second, let me extend my condolences to your BIL for his unfortunate resemblance to the likes of me. :)

    Perhaps he can take comfort in the immortal words of Chief Dan George as Lone Watie in THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES...

    "Endeavor to persevere". :)

    "We thought about it for a long time... "Endeavor to persevere." And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union."
    AC

  9. #69
    Member Array arn in ariz's Avatar
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    Cal Thomas' column Dec. 13 2007

    In his Thursday, December 13 column, Cal Thomas ended as follows:

    "The point is that gun laws will not deter criminals with evil intent and police can't be everywhere they're needed. But killers can be stopped by law-abiding citizens with guns. As the Supreme Court considers its ruling on whether the strict gun laws in the District of Columbia are constitutional, it might remember Jeanne Assam and her courageous, proper and for now legal response to a lawless act. Though four were killed at the two locations and several others wounded, many more owe their lives to Assam, who should be the new poster woman for those who wish to preserve the right to keep and bear arms."

    This column appeared in the print edition of the Arizona Republic and my be viewed in its entirety at: http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/thomas121307.php3
    (For some reason his column did not appear in the Republic's online edition.)
    Never Again!
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  10. #70
    Member Array ccwchris's Avatar
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    I have seen at least two interviews where Jeanne Assam described the event. She said that she heard the shots then saw the shooter. Then she said that she took cover and waited until he got closer (showing she new her effective range) and when he was closer she left cover, IDed herself and took him down.

    Now a lot can be said about her tactics and equipment VS his but it boils down to: An armed and violent threat was neutralized and lives where saved. I don't care if she shot him with a .45 , 9mm or threw a Hymnal at him, the point is she responded by moving towards a threat and is a hero.

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Since the news has reported that her hits were to the leg and wrist, and possibly weapon, what can we surmise from this?

    1. She was shooting to wound, not kill.
    2. She was shooting to defeat body armor defense.
    3. She made hits on and off body armor (has it been disclosed if he had armor?)
    4. At some point her shooting focused on the weapon instead of the target (COM, head)
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  12. #72
    Member Array Desk Jockey's Avatar
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    I saw reports of body armor early on, but not in the more recent info. The article in the local paper (Colo Springs Gazette) describing the coroners report said there were 2 in the leg, one in the wrist, and a "superficial wound" on his chest, that may have been a bullet deflected off his rifle. That wound would seem to indicate no body armor.

  13. #73
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    I, also, have seen no mention of body armor in any recent reports. That doesn't mean that it wasn't present, of course - the superficial wound to the chest may in fact be blunt force trauma from a shot that was stopped by armor...

    I anxiously await a complete AAR from one of the usual suspects, and I believe Mssr. Ayoob has already been paged....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  14. #74
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    She Is A Hero !!! End Of Story !!

    I'm sorry but I've read over and over some people picking apart Jeanne's take down & stopping the shooter @ NEW LIFE CHURCH . She was the ONLY one who engaged & returned gun fire to stop the threat !!!!! It doesn't matter where he was hit or how many times she fired her gun . What MATTERS is she heard the shots , ran towards the threat , came out of cover and shot til the threat was no longer a threat !!!!! Many others with cw's pulled their's but never tried to stop the shooter !!! SHE DID ! There are so many coflicting reports on tv and the internet .

    If she had shot center mass a 9mm would have done nothing to the body armor , plus a leg shot could be just as lethal as cm if you hit a main artery . She is a HERO and reacted to the threat when many others had the resources to do so and didn't !! She saved thousands of people that day mainly children that were only 20 yds to the left of where the shooter entered . I've been to this church and know that to be fact . So know what you're talking about before you judge ! The news only reports what they want and misreport facts constantly . From the beginning they've changed and contradicted the facts on this shooting at least a half a dozen times. Anyways , she is a HERO in my book and put her life on the line to stop any more carnage from happening .

    She came out of cover to face a threat that had her outgunned from the start. THINK ABOUT IT .

  15. #75
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    I don't think people are suggesting she didn't do a good job. But rather there is always something to learn from an event. Always room to learn and improve.

    -john

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