Federal CCW Off-Limits Laws - Page 2

Federal CCW Off-Limits Laws

This is a discussion on Federal CCW Off-Limits Laws within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I brought enough for everyone......

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  1. #16
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    I brought enough for everyone...
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  2. #17
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    Fellas, the best way to say it is this:

    The post office is a gray area. There are people that can make arguments on both sides that are pretty convincing. However, it is somewhat of an unanswered question. If you want to be the test case, go ahead. If not, be careful when you're at the post office.
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  3. #18
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    I think Echo_Four has the final word on the PO issue. It is a gray area, as no one has challenged PO carry in the courts yet.
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  4. #19
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    If you regularly go inside the same post office, chances are good you know the clerk at the counter, or even the postmaster. Ask them.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CT-Mike View Post
    I know that carrying in any federal building (including post offices) is off-limits, but are there any others that I need to know about?

    What about banks and credit unions? Don't appear to be off-limits per CT statute, but what about Federal?

    I could use a little help here.

    Thanks,

    Mike
    National Parks..

  6. #21
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    Along with what Echo_Four said about the gray area, the legality has not been tested in court. Until it is, and it has been decided in court for the first time, we have no definitive help.

    As I understand it, there is a 'test' in the pipeline that will lead to a decision about the PO. In the mean time, if you carry in a PO and are discovered, there is a possibility you could be arrested. It would be very costly to defend yourself.

    We can quote the statute(s) all we want, but the fact is, we don't know how the court will interpret it until a case comes to trial.
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  7. #22
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    So it seems to me that if the post office is not federal property, then 18 USC 390 clearly does not apply, including the exception. So then 39 CFR 232 would apply which still bans weapons on postal property.

    Also, here is a link to Kansas Firearm laws which states that post offices are off limits:

    http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/con...prohibited.pdf

    3.) Federal Facilities (K.S.A. 75-7c10(a)(15))
    18 U.S.C. 930 states that the possession of firearms, or causing a firearm to be
    present, in a federal facility or federal court facility will subject the individual to
    federal charges.
    a.) A “federal facility” is defined as, “a building or part thereof owned or leased
    by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for
    the purpose of performing their official duties.” 18 U.S.C. 930(g)(1).
    3
    For example, post offices (see also, 39 C.F.R. 232.1(l)), FBI branch offices, IRS
    branch offices, etc.
    b.) A “federal court facility” means, “the courtroom, judges' chambers, witness
    rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding
    cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United
    States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any
    court of the United States.” 18 U.S.C. 930(g)(3).


    Checking handgunlaw.us, it just repeats the above information.

    So either the state of Kansas got it wrong, or it is illegal to carry on postal property.
    "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground."

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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    KS has it wrong. The state themselves can ban carry in the post office but as far as federal law is concerned it is perfectly legal. There are a few states that specifically state that post office carry is prohibited BY STATE LAW.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    KS has it wrong. The state themselves can ban carry in the post office but as far as federal law is concerned it is perfectly legal. There are a few states that specifically state that post office carry is prohibited BY STATE LAW.
    I think that's a stretch at this point in time to say it is perfectly legal as far as federal law is concerned. Many have debated the legality of this for years, how did you come to this conclusion?
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  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array CT-Mike's Avatar
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    Tubby,

    How are you getting around 39 CFR 232 which specifically states it is illegal?
    "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground."

    - Thomas Jefferson

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  11. #26
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    National Forests are a no-no, unless you have written permission. Our nearest one is Land Between the Lakes and they have a gun range. You have to call ahead and get permission to use the range. and a ranger will meet you at the gate with your permit for the day. It is a real hassel and not worth the effort.

  12. #27
    wj
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    National Forests are STATE permit controlled. If your State permit allows carry then you are good to go. However, National PARKS are always a NO NO! I legally carry in the Hoosier National Forest and have done so for years. I used to carry on my court badge from Ohio now, my Indiana License. If I carry in a National Park I am a Felon! Same for any structure, i.e. Forest Service building, I guess the restrooms etc. Some times it gets a bit confusing. The campgrounds also enjoy a lake, controlled by the Corps of Engineers, again a federal NO NO. Enjoy your time figuring that out when you are camping/swiming and having fun. It can be a real nightmare. Let's get it fixed!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CT-Mike View Post
    I agree on that point 500Mag, but I wonder which takes precedence, this exception in 18 USC 390, or the prevention listed in 39 CFR 232? Any llawyers want to chime in on this?
    It's actually 18 USC 930. Don't do this to us dyslexics! I was damned confused for a minute there.

    And yes, it would seem that 18 USC 930 doesn't apply, even even if it does, the "notwithstanding" in section (l) seems to indicate that the exception listed in 18 USC 930(d)(3) would not apply. So it seems that if you were hunting, and stopped by a federal courthouse onyour way home and had your handgun on your hip, you wouldn't be in trouble (wouldn't want to try it though). But 39 CFR 232 still prohibits it on postal property.

    Interestingly,the prohibition in 39 CFR 232 only provides for a $50 fine or 30 days in jail.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I think that's a stretch at this point in time to say it is perfectly legal as far as federal law is concerned. Many have debated the legality of this for years, how did you come to this conclusion?
    Simply reading the law.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackBear View Post
    So it seems that if you were hunting, and stopped by a federal courthouse onyour way home and had your handgun on your hip, you wouldn't be in trouble (wouldn't want to try it though).
    No, you WOULD be in trouble as a federal courthouse IS a federal facility by definition as it has federal employees regularly there for performance of their duties. These federal employees are the federal judges, federal prosecutors, federal clerks, federal paralegals, etc.

    But 39 CFR 232 still prohibits it on postal property.
    But the CFR, code of federal regulations, CANNOT OVERRIDE FEDERAL LAW (USC-United States Code). The 39 CFR 232 is completely IRRELAVENT. Federal law, USC, allows for carrying of a firearm on postal property. The Code of Federal Regulations cannot override federal law. Period.

    The CFR recognizes this:

    Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
    Abrogate:

    abrogate
    One entry found.

    abrogate



    Main Entry: ab·ro·gate
    Pronunciation: \ˈa-brə-ˌgāt\
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): ab·ro·gat·ed; ab·ro·gat·ing
    Etymology: Latin abrogatus, past participle of abrogare, from ab- + rogare to ask, propose a law — more at right
    Date: 1526
    1 : to abolish by authoritative action : annul
    2 : to treat as nonexistent <abrogating their responsibilities>
    synonyms see nullify

    — ab·ro·ga·tion \ˌa-brə-ˈgā-shən\ noun

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