The Rule #4 factor - Page 2

The Rule #4 factor

This is a discussion on The Rule #4 factor within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, maybe some qualification of my response is in order. Again, I am NOT an instructor, nor am I leo (a big 'thanks' to the ...

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Thread: The Rule #4 factor

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Ok, maybe some qualification of my response is in order. Again, I am NOT an instructor, nor am I leo (a big 'thanks' to the folks who perform this work), and I dont even rate as much of a mall ninja.
    I also dont relay my point very well as my mind gets to moving ahead of my little fingers which are trying desperately to type before my thoughts elude them completely. When our poster first presented his ponderance, I had a picture in my mind of 'what if ' you are in a crowded restaurant with glass for windows and no real solid walls. In this matter, I still feel a kneeling shot gives one a better chance of hitting your target (stability) as well as countering an overpenetration, given the benefit of time and distance, as well as surprise. As a note, I should have mentioned that each situation is its own entity. No 2 shootings/firefights will EVER be the same. Also, rule #4 must be applied uniquely to its own situation. In the areas I travel, and recreate in, there are very, very few multi story dwellings to be concerned with a 2nd story bystander. Still, it is a consideration. Working to a better angle, which also hopefully provides cover/concealment, is also most desirable.
    As others have mentioned, this is all last ditch. I still maintian this site is inhabited by good people who have no desire to discharge their firearms unless it is in the gravest of extremes. These folks have also shown a propensity to think logically, and provide a myriad of answeres, none of which can really be labled 'wrong' ...just 'improvable'.

    Dan


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Talking

    RSSZ- I Will Never Shoot For The Pelvis !! I will NEVER teach someone to shoot for the pelvis.------------

    I betcha will if thats the only available 'part' of your target to shoot at.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Cool Ammo

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    The problems to be faced after even a good (legal) shoot, with a BG taken care of, pale into near insignificance if some innocent has been nailed during the engagement. So - trawling not for solutions - just thoughts and input generally. I muse as so often!
    A tragedy might be avoided in proper ammo. This is why my primary mag is always stuffed with the .45 MagSafe 68gr Super SWAT and my backup mag is usually a more conventional JHP like the Hydra-Shok. I'm also toying with the RBCD load in the primary...but the jury is still out on them, for now. Use of a frangible will minimize the risk of the T-N-T (Thru-N-Thru) gunshot or a "miss and bounce" injuring a bystander.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    ExSoldier762,
    Dude you should have a talk with the guys who make the G license laws.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Duuuuude

    Quote Originally Posted by gregarat
    ExSoldier762,
    Dude you should have a talk with the guys who make the G license laws.
    I have been an armed guard here in Florida off and on since 1975, but not at all for the last 17 years. I've worked bodyguard details, and worked as a security supervisor for just about every major firm in the south Florida area.

    The problem with giving rent-a-cops access to that kind of equipment is the number of OLDGUYS (REAAAAAL OLD) and incompetent police wannabes will ruin it for the few (of which you are one) good guards who have a legitimate need for such ammo. Although neither Glaser or MagSafe have ever lost a lawsuit where the sole problem was the AMMO, it would be much easier to attack the situation and personnel than the ammo.

    When I supervised the night shift I would LRRP up to sleeping guards and drop a string of firecrackers right behind them and watch them mess their pants! IIRC, the only ammo allowable to guards is .38sp RNL. The NYPD used to call those "widow makers" for the cops that is! I sometimes think that the state mandates this ammo so that when a guard shoots an innocent bystander, it will give the maximum chance for survival of the victim.

    My IN LAWS live in Lake City, FL, just up the road from Gainesville. I'm there at least twice a year.

    Dude get out of the job and get into the police academy!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #21
    Senior Moderator
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    I don't think this is about ammo types - if a certain brand of ammo will stop the BG effectively, it will also stop a GG (good guy) effectively even if by mistake. Maybe there's some advantage to choosing a bullet type that minimizes "over penetration", but there will also be times that type of ammo will be a disadvantage.

    Defensive shooting, etc. is situation dependent; our response should be driven by the situation. Several have made excellent points about "seeing" the situation develop. I like that concept! Certainly there will be times that something happens suddenly and unexpectedly, but as others have inferred, generally, situations develop rather than explode upon us. If we are alert, aware, and anticipating, we should be able to see developing situations. Not always of course, when we are caught by surprise, we do what we have to do to survive.

    Pelvic shots:
    I'm not so sure. Thunder Ranch teaches pelvic shots as a failure response when two COMs don't work. Gunsite teaches head shots as a failure response. Some proponents of the pelvic shots readily admit that they are not incapacitating, but they either buy time or put the BG down so you can get a better shot. Chuck Taylor in one of the recent gun mags, writes about an incident where he actually saw a comrade shot in the pelvis area by an enemy soldier. The American went down just like the pelvic proponents proclaim and proceded to shoot the enemy soldier to death.

    Right now, I lean toward using a pelvic shot to the situation jdsumner describes: "I betcha will if thats the only available 'part' of your target to shoot at.". True, true, true! But given the head as an option, that would be my first response to two COM failures.

  7. #22
    Member Array logistar's Avatar
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    Not that I would have a choice but given the choice of shooting "up" or shooting "down", I am thinking that shooting down would be the way to go.

    When shooting down I would expect the bullits to hit the ground on a miss or overpenetration. When shooting up... a miss or overpenetration will send a bullit flying to some unknown destination. It might have a lot of energy left when it finally finds a target.

    I realize that there could be an innocent VERY close to the BG or that a richochet still could do some damage but I thing your odds are better with a downward path most of the time.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    COM, pelvic, head shots... all are perfectly good shots in some situations and not so good in others. Same goes for the type of bullet you use. JHP's are called for sometimes while FMJ ball would do the job at other times. Bottom line is, 99% of the time during a gunfight, you'll never know what the particulars are going to be and what your best options are until you're already knee deep in the swamp and up to your neck in alligators.

    Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and the other training sites serve a useful purpose and provide a valuable service, the most important being they make their students more aware. Aware of possible threats, possible reactions and options to those threats and possibly most important, to the students own capabilities and limitations. Of course, this is all contingent upon a potential student having both the time and the money to attend one of these training camps. The vast majority of us don't have the time or money (or both) and sometimes have physical limitations that preclude us from attending. Sadly, these are often the people that need training the most. Also, as good as they may be, and while they may have a lofty goal of helping us better defend ourselves and our families, the camps are a business and run by individuals who need to make a profit to stay in business. Many are also designed with "professionals" in mind (like LEO, bodyguards) and the scenarios played out are seldom, if ever, encountered by the average person. I personally think that realistically, all we can do as "average" gun owners is look at the odds, see what works the best in the most number of situations and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE reacting to every scenario we can think of.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    You've heard of Friendly Fire??
    This is the source of most of it and there's nothing you can do about it.
    Sorry

    AFS
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Friendly fire

    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter
    You've heard of Friendly Fire??
    This is the source of most of it and there's nothing you can do about it.
    Sorry

    AFS
    That argument may work in the military, but it doesn't cut it in the civilian world unless you happen to be a LEO. Besides, even they are getting much more flak from the press and other groups over "bad" shootings these days. Also, prosecutors, lawyers and anti-gun groups love nothing better than to hear of a shooting involving an innocent bystander and a gun permit/CCL holder who shoots someone other than a BG. One accidental shooting, no matter how innocent it was, offsets the tens of thousands of good shootings done by law abiding citizens yearly preventing a crime. I was in the military myself (navy) for over twenty years and the one phrase I'm sure we both heard time and again was that "One aw sh*t wipes out a hundred atta boys". For me at least, it's better to let a BG get away than risk harming the bystanders or loved ones I'm suppose to be trying to protect.

    I will qualify my last statement by saying that if I'm already under fire and returning it, if a bystander is injured in the exchange due to their own actions (like running into the line of fire), that is a different situation. Still, if I know before I take a shot that the line of fire is not clear or the BG is using bystanders as a shield, I will hold my fire unless it comes down to a "them or me" situation. I'd feel very bad for a very long time if my actions caused a wife to loose a husband or children their mother, but I'd rather that be the case than have MY wife and kids loose their husband and father due to my inaction.
    Last edited by rachilders; August 1st, 2005 at 03:05 PM. Reason: TYPO
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  11. #26
    New Member Array RazorWire's Avatar
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    My thoughts

    Well guys, I am a newguy here, however I would like to offer my thoughts.
    1. Be aware, very aware of where you are, all others present. A BG almost never works alone. Often, one claiming to be a casual bystander is the perps little helper.
    2. Use both ammo and firearem that limits penetration. Energy that passes through is wasted energy. ( I prefer a 45 with LE type ammo).
    3. The law, at least in OK requires three things to happen before you are justified to shoot. Ability, intent, and action. They do not have to happen in a specific order, and they can all happen at once.
    4. The academy, I attended last year strongly recommends to not rely on your sidearm. At close ranges, you cannot draw, aim and fire before the BG is in your face. We were taught to disarm an attacker, whether they are using a knife, club or gun, when distances are short. ( We have to qualify out to 50 yards with a handgun)

    5. We were taught to do the "double tap" two in COM, followed by at least one in the face, nose or mouth, as the shot will cut the spinal column and prevent any " last minute messages" to make it to the gun hand.

    6. Learn to read people, and look for out of place behavoir, more than looking at individuals. Clothes that don't match the weather. Odd groupings, people that simply look like they are out of place.
    There is nothing wrong with the NIKE move. Live to fight another day.

    Everywhere you go run a senerio for that place and the number of people involved. When a situation occurs you will do as trained. Remember that cops
    that got shot because they were dumping spend brass into their hands?

    Razorwire

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregarat
    I also think about that alot.

    I can only use .38 leadheads, or 9mm FMJ at work in Florida. Doesnt it strike you odd that a G licensed guard cant use hollowpoint ammo with a 9mm? Has the state of Florida ever heard of overpenitration? Did the guys form The 1907 Hague Convention make this law?
    And that is one the reasons I refuse to get a G license. I'll smile at work and point out the closest party landmarks to the guests and fill reports and, at the end of the shift, get to my personal handgun loaded with hydrashoks and go home.

    gregarat, question. What kind of legal backing would your company give you in case of overpenetration trouble?

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    ra:
    I use the term "friendly fire" in the sense that it's an understood event not that it's only applicable to the military.
    IF, and I pray it never happens to anyone, it does happen I hope you see two things. THe COM of the bad guy and your front sight. Because you're going to experience tunnel vision. It happens to most of us in a shooting situation. And as for thinking... not a whole lot of that is going to happen. That's pretty much where the phrase that "you fight like you train" comes from. It's all going to be a reaction. Ask anybody that's been in a shooting situation. and believe me that last thing you're thinking of are the newspapers.

    AFS
    yeah, been there, done that, got the t - shirt and burned it
    Last edited by AirForceShooter; August 2nd, 2005 at 12:13 PM. Reason: spelling
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Like I said in post #23, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!! Review every possible scenario you can think of and do it with the gun or guns you plan to carry. Make sure you know everything that weapon will do and what condition it's in (loaded, safety on, etc) without looking at it. As you said AFS, when the crap hits the fan, you aren't going to have time to think about what if's and consequences, that's why you need to do it before things go to hell in a handbasket.

    When you carry a gun, you are carrying the power of life and death. If you choose to use it, choose wisely, choose well and - at least in my opinion - choose it as an option of last resort.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  15. #30
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    rachilders - +1 on that - your last post contains about all we need to really remember.

    Last resort it most certainly would be - that's a 10:4 for sure good bud
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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