August 4th, 2005 02:04 AM
Given what has been alleged, the guy should be hanged. As for looking amongst ourselves; I am not going to do it. I am not going to question others' decisions whether to own or not and whether to carry or not. If they decide to use a gun as a tool for their malevolence, then they should be held accountable for their actions, not the implement they used to carry them out.
...I also am unafraid to be held by these same standards.
"You are what you do when it counts."
"The secret to long life...is gunsights!"
August 4th, 2005 12:59 PM
We all ultimately must decide our own best course of action for whatever we do. In this case, the shooting of one driver by another in an apparent case of road rage taken to the extreme reminds me that we gun owners spend a lot of time talking about what we carry, when we carry, where we carry, how we carry and why we carry. We seldom, if ever, discuss the possibility of there being times or circumstances when we need to ask ourselves IF we should carry. Maybe this will wake up all of us to the possibility that just because we can own or carry a gun doesn't always mean we should.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
August 4th, 2005 04:29 PM
IMHO, we are confusing ourselves by the question. It should be TWO questions that encompass all the answers above. When whe shouldn't carry and when we shouldn't draw.
When we shouldn't carry? When it is against the law is one. Depending on your state there are places you cannot carry and we are all law abiding citizens here. If we disagree on what's on the legislation, we should push for change.
The other time when we shouldn't carry is whenever we are in condition of Diminished Capacity. Are we on a medication that will alter our perceptions? Did we go too happy at Happy Hour or at the Family Reunion? Then the gun must go secured until your mind is normal. No Ifs, no Buts no Excuses. Even the most righteous shooting will go down the drain if an eager D.A. with a political leaning against guns finds out you are off kilter because of something you ingested.
Then again you could choose NOT to ingest alcohol while you are carrying even if it is a hot day and your throat is aching for that cold cold beer. Think not only about the legal point but what if you are faced with a situation when you do need to use the gun and your response time and your abilities as shooter are reduced because you went and had a couple of six packs? You lose and maybe somebody you love will get hurt because you were impaired.
With your gun comes responsability and you should be willing to make that kind of sacrifice.
When we shouldn't draw? When your ego is affected and involved. That sumbiotch in the japanese compact, rap at full blasts cuts you off and gives you the finger? Blow them a kiss and let them be. The guy at the grocery stores will not accept your excuse when you bumped into him and is cussing you up and down? Withdraw, go away, call the manager if the guy persists. A bruised ego does not constitute "an inminent fear of death or grave bodily harm." And that is the parameter we all must use before doing something that might allter the rest of our lives.
August 4th, 2005 04:36 PM
A worthwhile distinction Miggy - well presented.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
August 4th, 2005 06:35 PM
If you choose to carry, it is incumbent upon you to hold yourself to a higher standard of behavior. If you should need to use your weapon for self defense, you will be held to a higher standard by our legal system.
To respond to the original question, I don't think one should carry if using any "mood-altering" substance, unless evaluated while using same and been found "stable" (for lack of a better term) by a medical professional. Conversely, one who is on a regimen and subsequently discontinues use or his/her prescription should again cease to carry until stability is demonstrated.
I don't carry when:
- illegal (obviously)
- drinking (so I don't drink much)
- taking prescription medicine that has any cautions about drowsiness, operating vehicles/equipment, etc.
I think all of the above would fall under the umbrella of common sense.
August 4th, 2005 06:40 PM
He knew he was depressed. He knew he was taking medication for his depression. It is not clear from the little information provided that he knew his judgement was impaired by the medication. In fact, he may have felt significantly more in control as a result of the medication, without being aware of the side effects. Or, he might have been aware of aggression as a possible side effect of some anti-depression drugs, but thought he could handle it. The effects of psychiatric drugs on perception can be subtle. His rage may have seemed entirely justified and within reason, to him, at that moment.
Originally Posted by rachilders
Back to the OP, just as part of wisdom is knowing what you don't know, part of carrying is knowing when you shouldn't carry. When he realized and accepted that he needed treatment for depression, he should have stopped carrying until he had his life under control again. Maybe he thought he was in control of the situation.
When I hurt my dominant eye, a year ago last April, I voluntarily put my pistol away until I could trust my sight, again, because I knew I couldn't trust my sight picture - two competing solid images, and I was equally likely to line up on the wrong one. It was nine months before I had my sight back to where it needed to be for me to pick up a pistol, again. Then I injured my shooting hand, and had to wait until I could grip. I felt very exposed while I wasn't carrying, but I felt it was my responsibility to stand down until I was back to 100%. I think most of you would have done the same.
August 4th, 2005 09:30 PM
I am a Professional Counselor and Disabled Veteran who takes medications and I would not have done that. I think sometime we are responsible for our behavior and I can just see that guy playing the "Vet" card saying his condition made him do it. I tell on the flip side of this be careful out there people you do have some people that are not only sick but have an obvious anger issue. Secondly, I would like to see the other half of the story also. Just my2cents though. I pray for both families.
August 5th, 2005 12:13 PM
Doc, I hope you don't take this as a personal criticism, but it seems to me that's part of current society's problem... we don't won't to get involved. I strongly believe in not sticking my nose into other peoples business. I don't normally do it and expect the came courtesy in return. The problem often is that many people don't realize they are having a problem until it's too late. Also, while it may seem obvious to someone else, illness and drugs often alters a persons perception of what's happening to them and their ability to deal with things.
Originally Posted by doc Russia
If I had a family member or friend that I knew was of diminished capacity due to drugs or illness and that person owned a gun, I would like to think I'd step in if they became a danger to themselves or others and point out the situation to them. Whether I'd go so far as removing a weapon without another persons knowledge or getting the authorities involved, I'd have to think long and hard before that could happen. The person would have to be in dire circumstances and an immediate and obvious danger to themselves or others before I'd consider it. Remember, the vast number of shootings (other than robbery or gang) happen between people who are acquaintances or related. There's also the possibility of suicide if the individual's state of mind is that far gone. Crisis intervention, like using a gun in self defense, should always be a method of last resort, but sometimes it's the only thing standing between "having a bad day" and having a day turn deadly. If someone had taken that one extra step with the shooter yesterday, maybe the other driver wouldn't be dead today, his wife a widow and his daughter left without a father.
[Mod note - I fixed your end of quote so it displays ok]
Last edited by Scott; August 6th, 2005 at 06:36 AM.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
August 6th, 2005 01:46 AM
Yes Miggy - your distinction is most important. In fact, I believe the distinction should be even finer. In spite of the title of this thread, the question is not so much when we should or should not carry - or even when we should or should not draw. The question is when we should or should not pull the trigger. That may seem obvious - but it may not be so simple or quite so easy to discern.
As one who has lawfully carried concealed when faced with an armed aggressor - I know first hand that the presence of the gun in my hand (still in my pocket) made me MORE circumspect - and actually LESS inclined to use it. Why? I don't really know. The aggressor confronted me in my place of employment, announced in front of witnesses that he was going to kill me (for doing my job), had the loaded revolver in his hand and was in the process of drawing it from his hip holster - and so it is very likely I would not have been prosecuted for protecting myself from an imminent deadly assault. I'm not sure what kept me from firing. In those crucial moments I decided I would not act until I saw the end of the muzzle clear the holster and begin the sweep toward my chest. Maybe he saw the intense focus in my eyes and in spite of his intoxicated state he decided to reconsider the consequences of his actions. Again - I don't exactly know what kept the situation from ending in bloodshed. Even though he repeated the threat months later - we are both still alive.
Years later I learned (unknown to either me or the aggressor) that a third person was standing behind a door with a shotgun pointed at his chest. Obviously the presence of MY firearm did not escalate the situation (no one even knew I was armed). Strangely enough - the presence of my gun - AND MY SUBSEQUENT RESTRAINT IN USING IT - likely saved the aggressor's life. My gun made me LESS - not MORE - aggressive.
Perhaps this situation would be considered to be an anomaly in the annals of armed encounters. Or maybe I'm just an oddball. All I know is - in the space of moments I learned more about the judicious use of force than all the classroom hours or armchair theorizing could ever teach.
If you want to make God laugh - tell Him your plans. Yiddish proverb
August 9th, 2005 10:42 AM
Okay, I'll take the bait here and fess up that I went UNARMED to a four day family reunion last week. Just got back home yesterday. I was legal to carry in the three states that I passed through, but after several days of careful consideration, I decided to the leave my piece at home locked up. My extended family are kinda "hill-billy" style, in a rural area, so there was plenty of long guns at hand. One of my uncles runs a reunion "skeet shoot" for money. ATV's galore !! Main reason that I did not carry was the plentiful supply of small children running around all over the place. I could just imagine them crawling and clawing me to no end. I felt I could not take the chance. Well, I'm here to tell you all that I made it back safe and sound.
August 9th, 2005 10:51 AM
I believe that the only time you should not carry is when YOU are not comfortable carrying, for whatever reason YOU choose. The choice to carry a weapon is a personal one which carries great responsibility. I like to think that those who take this responsibility seriously actually make a conscious decision every day they strap on their weapon.
They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Previously known as "cjm5874"
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