Alamo Drafthouse in Austin, TX has posted 30.06 signs prohibiting carry

Alamo Drafthouse in Austin, TX has posted 30.06 signs prohibiting carry

This is a discussion on Alamo Drafthouse in Austin, TX has posted 30.06 signs prohibiting carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The original thread is posted on www.ar15.com The Alamo drafthouse is a movie theater that offers dinner and drinks to its customers during the movie. ...

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Thread: Alamo Drafthouse in Austin, TX has posted 30.06 signs prohibiting carry

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array SC-Texas's Avatar
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    Alamo Drafthouse in Austin, TX has posted 30.06 signs prohibiting carry

    The original thread is posted on www.ar15.com

    The Alamo drafthouse is a movie theater that offers dinner and drinks to its customers during the movie. They recently posted 30.06 signs that ban the licensed concelaed carry of handguns in their premises. These theaters are located in high crime areas, namely shopping malls.

    The original poster on ar15.com sent this email:

    I've been a fan of Alamo Draft House since moving here a few years ago. The combination of great food, mainstream and off-beat movies makes it my first choice when picking a theater. However, my recent trip to the Lake Creek location made me feel like an unwelcome customer.

    As I was purchasing tickets, I saw a Texas Penal Code 30.06 sign on the box office which states, "PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN." I was actually a bit insulted to see this. Getting a concealed handgun license involves fingerprinting, background checks and a mandatory ten-hour training class with a licensed instructor. It's extremely rare for a licensee to ever need to use their handgun. It's also extremely rare to have a licensee convicted of any crime. Police are generally more at-ease if they encounter a licensee during a routine traffic stop. They know that we've done the training, fingerprinting, background checks and have jumped through the hoops to obey the law and we're on their side.

    Is disheartening to see such a good business that enjoys the protection of the 1st Amendment by offering a wide variety of movies and entertainment treat those that enjoy the protection of the 2nd as unwelcome customers. If Alamo Draft House truly does not want law-abiding concealed handgun licensees as their customers, then I will take my business elsewhere.

    Thank you for your time and I look forward to your reply.
    In her reply, the manager takes ownership of the no concealed carry policy and tells us that she beleives its a good idea and a wonderful thing.

    Hi Pete and thanks for writing. I have enclosed a link passed along
    from another member of my management team that lists many commonly
    asked questions and the appropriate answers from the Texas Department
    of Public Safety Division of Handgun Licensing. There are several
    answers to these questions that would qualify our choice to prevent
    licensed handguns from being on the premise, however, the point most
    applicable in this question and answer series is below:

    "Q: Where can I not take my handgun?
    A: Handguns and other weapons can not be carried at schools or on
    school buses, at polling places, in courts and court offices, at
    racetracks and at secured airport areas. The law also specifically
    prohibits handguns from businesses where alcohol is sold if more than
    half of their revenue is from the sale of alcohol for on-premises
    consumption, and from locations where high school, college or
    professional sporting events are taking place. You may not carry
    handguns in hospitals or nursing homes, amusement parks, places of
    worship or at government meetings if signs are posted prohibiting
    them. Businesses also may post signs prohibiting handguns on their
    premises based on criminal trespass laws."

    Below is the link...

    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/adminis...ds/chl/faq.htm

    Ultimately, I most likely will not be able to make you feel better
    about our choice. However, it is our choice. The same constitution
    that permits you to carry a concealed handgun, supports our right as
    a business to not want the handguns in our private business. While
    there are probably many responsible members of society licensed to
    carry handguns, and you no doubt are one of them, being the employer
    of 100 plus non-armed employees, I do support my businesses decision
    to post that signage. Please feel free to contact me directly at
    lauren@drafthouse.com with further comments or concerns. Where this
    topic is concerned, however, I do not have much else to say.

    Yours,

    Lauren S. Rogers
    General Manager
    Alamo Drafthouse Lake Creek
    512.219.7803

    The OP sentthis reply to Lauren's self serving letter:

    Well I am disappointed to hear that. I will be letting my friends and customers know that they too are not welcome at your establishment. If you have time, I would love to know your reasoning behind not letting licensees carry at Lake Creek. Thank you.

    BTW, only law-abiding citizens will honor a no-handgun sign. Criminals will not.


    In a reply to another AR15.com emailer,Lauren now disavows her support of the policy banning concelaed carry and attempts to pass the buck to the owners. Basically, Lauren is a typical Austin hypocrite liberal who is denying that the policy that she thought was such a good idea a few days ago, is such a good idea today now that she is receiving emails criticizing her decision.

    Hi SBR and thanks for writing. Unfortunately, those of us who receive this email, including myself, are unable to dictate any policy at our store... including the one you are referencing in this chain of emails. We are the management, but not final decision makers. If you would like to further discuss this policy with someone above us, please contact owner@drafthouse.com and the owner will get back to you. I believe the owner has contacted the TABC recently over inquiries about our signage, which has been posted for nearing a year now. Again, I apologize that I cannot bring more to the table, but I am only a representative of the policy and not, contrary to the popular belief in many of the emails I have received, personally responsible for this decision. I hope the redirection is helpful to you. Happy Holidays!

    Yours,

    Lauren S. Rogers
    General Manager
    Alamo Drafthouse Lake Creek
    512.219.7803

    A good sample letter to send.

    [CEO, Public Relations Director, President, etc.]
    Any Company, Inc.
    Any Street
    Any Town USA
    Dear Mr. __________________
    I have learned that your store is considering barring concealed handgun licensees (CHL) from carrying handguns on or about their persons while on your business premises. I would ask you to take the following factors into consideration before finalizing your decision. Carrying a concealed handgun onto private property is legal and authorized by the Texas Legislature so that CHLs may protect themselves from danger. If you prohibit CHLs from carrying a handgun while on your business premises, you will be rendering useless a lawful act on the part of such persons. Additionally, you will render them unable to protect themselves when the legislature has provided a means for their own self protection.
    Common sense indicates that you are assuming the risk of providing for the personal protection of such persons while on your property. An example of reasonable steps that you might take to provide for the personal protection of CHLs who are disarmed while on your premises is to hire round the clock security guards to provide armed protection in your place of business and in the parking area.
    It is reasonably foreseeable that posting signs indicating that CHLs may not carry a handgun on or about their person while on your premises, would indicate to the criminal element that the persons inside the store are disarmed and thereby make your business premises a target for violent criminal activity. Certainly, it would make it more of a target than the business who posts no sign at all, leaving the criminal element uncertain as to whether or not CHLs are armed on the premises. This was the intent of the legislature as the handgun is required to be concealed. The purpose of the statute is to create a tremendous deterrent effect throughout society in that the criminal element will not know who has chosen to exercise their lawful right of self-defense, and who has not. By creating a zone where you advertise that patrons on your premises are not armed, you are holding yourself out to the public as a place where the public safety desires as expressed by the legislature are void and prohibited, and you give the criminal element a reason to believe that your premises are vulnerable to crime.
    Recently, Taco Bell was assessed eight million dollars in damages for a violent assault that took place on its property for failing to protect the persons at the Taco Bell. The law is fairly clear on this subject in Texas. “Generally, an ordinary business owner or operator, as opposed to a proprietor of a restaurant, inn, or similar establishment, is under a duty to exercise reasonable care for the safety of his or her invitees. Garner v. McGinty, 771 S.W.2d 242, 246(Tex. Civ. App.–Austin 1989, no writ). “A business invitor owes a duty to his business invitees to take reasonable steps to protect them from intentional injuries caused by third parties if he knows or has reason to know, from what he has observed or from past experience, that criminal acts are likely to occur, either generally or at some particular time.” Id. at 246: Castillo v. Sears, Roebuck & Co.,663 S.W.2d 60,66 (Tex.Civ.App.–San Antonio 1983, writ ref’d n.r.e.)(”there is no duty upon the owner of operators of a shopping center…or upon merchants and shopkeepers generally, whose mode of operation of their premises does not attract or provide a climate for crime, to guard against criminal acts of a third party, unless they know…that acts are occurring or are about to occur on the premises that pose imminent probability of harm to an invitee: whereupon a duty of reasonable care to protect against such act arises.”) Thus, a plaintiff in a case against an ordinary business owner or operator will have to demonstrate that the business owner or operator knew or had reason to know that criminal acts were likely to occur in order to establish that the business owner or operator had a duty to take reasonable steps to protect invitees from injuries caused by third parties. By contrast, the duty of a proprietor of a restaurant, inn, or similar establishment generally includes the duty to exercise reasonable care to protect patrons from assaults of third persons while on the premises. Eastep v. Jack-in-the-Box, Inc., 546 S.W.2d 116(Tex.Civ.App.–Houston{14th Dist.} 1977, writ ref’d n.r.e.)
    Then attorney General’s office of Texas has noted the following on this issue: “Once a duty to protect patrons from the intentional acts of third parties is established, whether a business owner or operator will be held liable for injuries to customers inflicted by third person appears to depend in great part upon the foreseeability of the assault and whether the business owner or operator took reasonable measures to prevent the assault.”
    I personally will not shop at your business premises if it prohibits CHLs from carrying their handguns concealed on their persons while on your premises for three reasons:
    (1) You discriminate against individuals who merely take advantage of a lawful means of protecting themselves; (2) You have created a place where there is a higher likelihood of criminal activity; and (3) The absence of state certified and qualified citizens who lawfully carry a handgun means that I will be less safe than if I were in a similarly situated place of business that did not prohibit CHLs from being personally armed on the premises;
    If you persist in this policy, I will advise the members of my family and all of my friends not to patronize your place of business and we will take our business to a competitor. Even a small price increase for the same goods is worth the personal safety of myself and my family in these troubled times.
    Many businesses have considered putting up signs prohibiting otherwise lawfully carried handguns to be prohibited from the premises and have changed their policy to allowing CHLs to be armed on the premises. These premises include: Walmart and J.C. Penneys.
    Moreover, I understand that the attorneys for the Texas Restaurant Association have concluded after a thoughtful and extensive review of all the factors involved that allowing CHLs on the premises armed does not increase liability in any way for a restaurant as it is a legislatively authorized and protected activity. This is so because the individuals involved have had a background check, careful screening, state qualification and certification of knowledge of the penal code, safety procedures and, have passed a handgun proficiency examination, both in writing and in physical demonstration. Several other association general counsel have concluded that allowing such an individuals onto the premises of their businesses does not raise the threshold for liability.
    I hope that you will consider the above factors carefully, and in the end, come to the right decision and allow CHLs to patronize your business while exercising their legislatively authorized right to their own self-protection. Alternatively if you choose to deny me the legislatively granted right to persons to protect themselves while on your premises, you have legally assumed the risk of providing for the safety of your patrons and have made a decision to ban lawful carrying of handguns on your business premises after understanding all of the factors involved.

    Yours truly,
    Texas Gun Owner
    I have sent several emails without a response.


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array SC-Texas's Avatar
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    Lauren, like the typical Austin Liberal, doens't like the heat hen her avowed belifs are questioned.

    Hi Jerome and thanks for writing. Unfortunately, I am unable to dictate
    any policy at our store, including the one you are referencing. I am the
    General Manager, but not (by any means) the final decision maker. If you
    would like to further discuss this policy with someone above myself,
    please contact owner@drafthouse.com and the owner will get back to you. I
    believe that the owner has contacted the TABC recently over inquiries
    about our signage, which has been posted for nearing a year now. Again, I
    apologize that I cannot bring more to the table, but I am only a
    representative of the policy. Contrary to popular belief in the language
    of many of the emails I have received, I am NOT personally responsible for
    this decision. I hope this redirection helps you.

    Yours,

    Lauren S. Rogers
    General Manager
    Alamo Drafthouse Lake Creek
    512.219.7803

  3. #3
    Ex Member Array SC-Texas's Avatar
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    My letter to Lauren and her employers:

    Gentlemen,

    Lauren claimed that she was responsible for the pro-criminal activity signs at your establishment until she realized that supporting the activities of criminals wasn't popular.

    Now, she is passing the buck and saying that you, the owners of the Alamo drafthouse support criminal activity and not her.

    Why is she passing the buck? Is she the supporter of criminals or is it you, the owners of the Alamo drafthouse who support criminals and their activities?

    I'm curious!

    Sincerely,

    SC-Texas
    Attorney at Law


    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: SC-Texas<sctexas@gmail.com>
    Date: Dec 22, 2007 9:05 PM
    Subject: Concealed Carry of Handguns at Alamo Drafthouse
    To: Comments.Lakecreek@drafthouse.com, lauren@drafthouse.com, Sean Cody <sctexas@gmail.com>



    Lauren,

    I have learned of your decision to exercise your right to ban the lawful carry of concealed handguns by licensed and trained citizens of the great state of Texas.

    You have turned your place of business into a gun free zone for law abiding citizens. The criminals will see it a a safe work zone because they will know that law abiding citizens who are licensed and trained to carry handgun will honor your posting of a 30.06 sign and will disarm themselves.

    Your effort to create a safe environment by banning the licensed carry of handguns is actually creating an unsafe environment for everyone other than criminals. The recent department store shooting in Nebraska was in a posted gun free zone such as you are creating. In that case, only the criminals had guns. This is exactly the environment that you are creating. Lauren, Do you support criminals and their behavior? Your banning of the concealed carry of handguns by trained and licensed citizens of the great state of Texas makes your establishment a free enterprise zone for criminals and the posting of your 30.06 sign tells all the criminals that the Alamo Drafthouse is a free enterprise zone for them to conduct their criminal activity in.

    I assume that you and Alamo Drafthouse are personally guaranteeing the safety of your patrons from their cars, to your establishment, during the movie and back to their cars since you have deprived your patrons of their ability to defend themselves and their families. Are you and your employer making this guarantee? Can you and your employer ensure the safety of your patrons from criminal activity on your premises and in your parking lot since you have made the decision to exercise your rights and disarm them?

    I do not and will not patronize businesses that abridge my right to defend myself and my family by banning the carry of concealed handguns by licensed and trained citizens of the state of Texas. I have informed my clients, friends and business associates of your decision to abridge the rights of the citizens of the state of Texas.

    Further, I have explained to these people that you condone criminal conduct and are taking actions that facilitate criminal conduct on and about your premises.

    I look forward to the day that I can tell my clients, friends and associates that the Alamo Drafthouse does not support criminals and their activities.

    Sincerely

    SC-TExas
    Attorney at Law




    --
    SC-Texas

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Gun Bunny's Avatar
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    Man, I'm glad that we don't have signs!!!
    I hope it all works out for you all.
    Kahr CW9
    Sig P239/9mm
    Ruger LC9 (when the girlfriend lets me carry her gun)


    "First Duty is To Remember"

  5. #5
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    Sounds like a battle. I believe she will come to her senses. The one letter about guaranteeing the safety of people was spot on. I may have to save that one and use it to send to anti establishments. Hope all works well. Sometimes it's just a matter of getting someone to see a side they never saw before or........................ get hit in the pocket book....

  6. #6
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    Great letters...
    Sure glad I live in the GunShine State...
    NO SIGNS...

    Stay armed...stay safe!
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  7. #7
    Ex Member Array SC-Texas's Avatar
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    Its important to Communicate with any business that posts a no gun sign.

  8. #8
    Ex Member Array SC-Texas's Avatar
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    Just in Lauren:

    Now she is just a figurehead.

    My apologies Sean, I thought you and I had already communicated...
    another Sean (same spelling), I suppose. Since I did not inform you
    previously, you should email owner@drafthouse.com for further
    communications related to this issue. The owner will be glad to get
    back with you.

    I am the General Manager, and I am a figure head for enforcing and
    explaining our policies to those patrons who may have inquiries...
    however, I did not set this policy into place nor any policy at our
    store into place. That is how any business with a set of management
    in place works. Policy is obviously not set by members of the
    management team, they follow and enforce policies set forth by their
    owners or board of directors, depending on the type of business...
    which is the case at our store, as well.

    I only responded to one initial individual who had written me about
    the CHL policy quite some time ago because normally, I do respond to
    the emails that come to this address. Since people seem to have
    strong feelings about this issue, and I did not set the policy into
    place, I do not think it forthright for me to act as if I do have
    some ownership in the decision and continue to discuss this with
    those concerned. It is a waste of time for those communicating with
    me as I cannot make the changes that people seem interested in. I
    personally have nothing to do with this policy, other than being a
    member of our management team responsible for responding to the
    communique of our patrons.

    Again, if you would like to contact owner@drafthouse.com they will be
    glad to get back to you. I know this issue is important to many, and
    I hope that these communications are fruitful for all involved. I do
    receive emails about other aspects of our business, as well, and I
    must stay on top of those, additionally. Again with the Happy Holidays!

    Lauren S. Rogers




    If the email owner@drafthouse.com is kicked back, try John@drafthouse.com as an alternate. He is the CEO of the company

  9. #9
    Member Array DasBoot's Avatar
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    Boy, she certainly distanced herself from her earlier stance:
    I do support my businesses decision
    to post that signage.
    Typical!
    Criminals are not dissuaded by soft words, soft judges or easy laws. They are dissuaded by fear and they are prevented from repeating their crimes by death or by incarceration.

  10. #10
    Member Array Lawrence Keeney's Avatar
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    One of the movers and shakers there is the moderator of www.aintitcoolnews.com


    Harry Knowles is his name, and hes a movie critic. He filled in on siskel and ebert over the past couple of years. He's also a major WAY WAY left winger..that's probably the major reason for the signs.
    "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong." Denny Crane:

  11. #11
    Member Array blueridge's Avatar
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    "The difference between a Liberal and a Conservative is one good mugging."

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    I wonder if she really meant (and needed) a 51 sign.

    In any case, it is my understanding that carrying while under the influence is a no, no, in Texas and that there is no low ebd cut-off, as there is for driving. Since they serve drinks, just maybe the policy isn't a bad idea.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I wonder if she really meant (and needed) a 51 sign.

    In any case, it is my understanding that carrying while under the influence is a no, no, in Texas and that there is no low ebd cut-off, as there is for driving. Since they serve drinks, just maybe the policy isn't a bad idea.
    Carrying while intoxicated in Texas is illegal. It's not illegal to have a drink while carrying, as long as it's not in a 51% establishment. For example, a glass of wine with dinner at a nice restaurant, no problem.

    As for the Alamo Drafthouse policy, it is a bad idea. It totally negates the rights of individuals who are NOT drinking to excess. Maybe you'd have a designated CCW carrier, just like a designated driver? One way or another, it puts the decision in the hands of the business owner, instead of the responsible, law-abiding citizen.

    That said, they have every right to do so, as it is a private business. We, in turn, have every right to not patronize their business, and to tell the world we will not and why they shouldn't. We have every right to contact the owners, their patrons, and the press, as much as we wish. When it hits 'em on the bottom line, that's when a change will happen.

    It's a mistake to just ignore it, because then they'll never learn anything.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Here's the email I just sent to the owners and management of the Alamo Drafthouse.

    Gentlemen:

    It is with dismay that I have just learned of your decision to prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns by those who are duly licensed by the State of Texas to do so. While I realize that it is fear for your safety that has driven your decision, the unfortunate consequence is that you have made yourselves and your patrons less safe.

    For the only individuals who will obey your edict are the very law-abiding citizens who have been shown to respect the law and the safety of others. Each concealed handgun licensee is an adult who has passed a background check and received training in the applicable laws of the state. Each individual has received instruction in the situational aspects of self-defense, as well as certification for safety and proper implementation of their firearm. These are the people who will not carry a handgun in your establishment, or will, more likely for many, simply choose to not patronize the Alamo Drafthouse.

    The individuals who will carry concealed weapons on the premises of your business will choose to ignore the 30.06 sign. They're already in your business, every night. A "gun free zone" is no protection from the criminal, who has shown a lack of respect for laws, rules and the people who do obey them. This was the case at Virginia Tech, and in the recent mall shootings.

    It was also the case right here in Texas in October 1991, when an unemployed merchant seaman drove his pickup truck into a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen, leaped out and opened fire. He killed 23 people and wounded more than 20. Texas Representative Suzanna Hupp watched helplessly while her parents were killed, because she, as a law-abiding Texan, chose to leave her handgun in her car. She had no opportunity to influence the outcome.

    Here are her words:
    "I'd like people to think about what happened to me, and try to place themselves in that situation, Now, instead of thinking of their parents, have it be their children."

    "Even if you choose not to have a gun, as the bad guy who ignored all the laws is getting close to you and as he levels that firearm at one of your children, don't you hope the person next to you has chosen to carry a gun and knows how to use it?"

    I hope that you and your business never have to face that situation, and live with the regret over such a tragedy.

    As a privately-owned business, you have the absolute right to prevent law-abiding citizens from carrying concealed handguns on your premises. In turn, those same customers have the absolute right to take their business elsewhere, and to let others know their reasons for doing so.

    I have passed along this information to family, friends, and acquaintances, with my recommendation that they not patronize the Alamo Drafthouse until such time as this well-meaning, but misguided policy is changed.

    I would be happy to discuss this further, at your convenience.

    Respectfully,
    Last edited by rodc13; December 25th, 2007 at 09:29 AM.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  15. #15
    Member Array kashton's Avatar
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    I went to alamo drafthouse about a month ago and there was no 30.06 sign... when did they start this?

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