Complicated situation in NH--CCW, Gun-Free School Zones, References...

This is a discussion on Complicated situation in NH--CCW, Gun-Free School Zones, References... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm 18 and living with my parents at a boarding school in NH--our house is owned by the school and on campus (thus easily within ...

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Thread: Complicated situation in NH--CCW, Gun-Free School Zones, References...

  1. #1
    New Member Array NJS's Avatar
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    Question Complicated situation in NH--CCW, Gun-Free School Zones, References...

    I'm 18 and living with my parents at a boarding school in NH--our house is owned by the school and on campus (thus easily within a Gun-Free School Zone). My father's contract forbids him from keeping a weapon in the house, but as I understand it, if he doesn't know he isn't liable, and as I signed nothing of the sort, the worst that can happen is that they ask me to get rid of it or move out.

    Failing that (and I will seek legal counsel before I do something that could hurt his job), I could store the gun in my car outside, and then it needn't be a secret.

    But this situation raises a number of questions for me:

    1. Does the NH handgun license provide an exemption to the Gun-Free School Zones act? Does this exemption apply to being ON campus, or just within 1000 feet of them? (If it does not, I believe I would then still be OK to keep the gun in the car on the road, technically off-campus).

    2. How well do references for the NH license have to know you? What's asked of them? I took a firearms safety course and considered asking the instructors to be references, as everyone I know personally either knows my father (and if he were informed, he could face troubles) or is associated with my school--again, this could cause problems for my dad.

    3. As I'm under 21, I can't purchase a handgun from an FFL--Does anyone know of NH regulations about private sales? I understand that in some states the buyer must be 'personally known' to the seller, but that you are exempt from that if the buyer possesses a handgun license.

    Anyone who can shed a bit of light on my predicament will be rewarded with e-thanks and a thumbs-up icon.

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  3. #2
    Member Array joffe's Avatar
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    The NH license is too simple for the federal regulations. I don't know the specifics, but in NH, gun-free school zones are in effect, license or not.

    Seeing as I'm across the pond I'm not really the best source on the rest, but I do know the above. Here are some resources (oh, and join as many as you can! It ain't like the natl' organisations that are fighting each other, they're all good):

    http://www.gonh.org/
    http://www.pgnh.org/
    http://www.nhfc-ontarget.org/

    Also, I was under the impression that the handgun license itself was limited to above 21yr olds - if I recall this correctly your only option would be open carry.

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    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    I am not 100% certain, just 99.44%, that carry in public elementary schools is legal in NH.

    Not sure how the specifics apply to a boarding school, or employment contract, but definitely do some research.

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Go to the Pro-Gun NH website, join up ($5 for charter membership) and then shoot an Email off to Sam Cohen (Pro-Gun NH) asking your questions. Tell him "Len sent you!" http://www.pgnh.org/

    Sam is a superb knowledge-base on NH laws. He's also a personal friend of mine. I took some vacation time up in NH and had to ask him about legality of carrying (I have a NH NR permit) on a college campus as the museum we were visiting was co-located on a college campus. Colleges are NOT off-limits in NH.

    I don't have any first-hand info to answer your questions, but I know that Sam will know the answers for you.

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    New Member Array NJS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    Go to the Pro-Gun NH website, join up ($5 for charter membership) and then shoot an Email off to Sam Cohen (Pro-Gun NH) asking your questions. Tell him "Len sent you!" http://www.pgnh.org/

    Sam is a superb knowledge-base on NH laws. He's also a personal friend of mine. I took some vacation time up in NH and had to ask him about legality of carrying (I have a NH NR permit) on a college campus as the museum we were visiting was co-located on a college campus. Colleges are NOT off-limits in NH.

    I don't have any first-hand info to answer your questions, but I know that Sam will know the answers for you.
    I'm not sure agreeing to wear a pro-gun lapel pin all the time is conducive to the idea of concealed carry--how seriously do they take that? I'd be happy to join, but I'm not sure how happy they are to take members that just sit and soak up resources without spreading the message...

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    Member Array MikeNH's Avatar
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    You can't carry at elementary/highschools, thats the federal law. Theres nothing on the state books about carrying on college campuses. A NH license does NOT grant you the right to carry on school grounds. I think the exemption on the federal law states that if you have a permit issued by a local official your ok, and though the NH permit does meet this stipulation, I'm pretty sure its a no go (though I haven't really looked into it, I have no kids or any other reason to be at a school). As for the references, I have been one twice and wasn't ever contacted, and the people I used for mine weren't contacted. If anything, they might just look up the people you list to see what kinda friends you got. As for your last question, I think no matter what your supposed to be 21 to buy one, but you can be given one by your parents at any age, so ownership isn't really the issue.

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    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    Carry On School Property

    There is no law in NH about carrying on Elementary or Secondary Schools. In Utah it is done everyday. The 1000 foot law is null and void anyways if you have a permit issued by the state you are in. The 1000 foot law does not say on the school property but within 1000 feet so once you cross the line onto the school property the Fed law does not apply and State Law does. The big thing is if you have a NH Permit. NH does not state an age to obtain a CCW in its laws. From everything I have been told it is 18. Check with the issuing authority and see. The most they can tell you is no. If you can get a CCW you are fine. Now if your Father allows one in the house then he can be responsible and can be terminated from his job even if you are 18 as you are living with him. If you were just visiting then it would most likely not be held against him. Just remember that when you sign a contract they can do what ever they wish. You can sue to get your job back but that is not an automatic win.
    Talk to the issuing agency first and see if you can get a permit. If you can but a locked box in your vehicle and make sure you secure it all the time to prevent it from being stole. The Club on the steering wheel deters most criminals. You can have a gun at 18 if you have your father or mother buy it for you as a gift. They will have to buy the ammo also as you can possess it but can't buy it.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

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    New Member Array NJS's Avatar
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    So I guess the consensus is that I should be keeping it locked out of the house... Kind of unfortunate (Hey, burglar! Once I get past you to my car you'll be in trouble!), but it's better than nothing.

    Thanks.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    There is no law in NH about carrying on Elementary or Secondary Schools. In Utah it is done everyday. The 1000 foot law is null and void anyways if you have a permit issued by the state you are in. The 1000 foot law does not say on the school property but within 1000 feet so once you cross the line onto the school property the Fed law does not apply and State Law does. The big thing is if you have a NH Permit. NH does not state an age to obtain a CCW in its laws. From everything I have been told it is 18. Check with the issuing authority and see. The most they can tell you is no. If you can get a CCW you are fine. Now if your Father allows one in the house then he can be responsible and can be terminated from his job even if you are 18 as you are living with him. If you were just visiting then it would most likely not be held against him. Just remember that when you sign a contract they can do what ever they wish. You can sue to get your job back but that is not an automatic win.
    Talk to the issuing agency first and see if you can get a permit. If you can but a locked box in your vehicle and make sure you secure it all the time to prevent it from being stole. The Club on the steering wheel deters most criminals. You can have a gun at 18 if you have your father or mother buy it for you as a gift. They will have to buy the ammo also as you can possess it but can't buy it.
    There is indeed a federal law though and a permit to carry concealed issued by the state, just by itself, is NOT an exclusions from that law. It reads that it takes a good deal more than that to exclude. It is the "Guns Free School Zones Act of 1990". Section 1702 of the Crime Control Act of 1990 (Pub.L. 101-647, 18 U.S.C. 922(q)) on November 29, 1990

    As far as I know it is still in effect and law.

    And this Federal law includes private schools as well as Public and even Parochial schools!

    However... I believe that law to be unconstitutional. A similar one was ruled so. And overturned. However Congress passed another one anyway. It should be challenged. I believe it to be wrongly passed and unconstitutional myself.

    Whoever violates the Act shall be fined not more than $5,000, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both.

    I don't know if Utah does ignores that or not. You could be wrong. I do know that Colleges and University's are not included in the definition in the Federal law. Just elementary and Secondary schools seem to be targeted by that law. Are you 100% certain that CWP carry in elementary and secondary schools is legal in Utah or anywhere else? And that its not precluded by Federal law? Or are you just assuming that because carry at Colleges and University's is allowed that it also carries down to them? I don't believe so.

    To the OP (these are totally just my opinions and hardly error proof):

    1) Since your under 21, a handgun would probably still be under your Fathers responsibility, even if in your possession and him not "supposedly" knowing about it.

    2) as per #1, he would still be responsible for you since your living under his roof. And so anything he agrees to passes down to you. I don't believe anything can come of it but termination of his lease due to failure to abide by contractual agreement. In other words, they can kick you guys out. All of you.

    3) As far as I can tell, no matter what NH law is and even if this is a private school, it would still be illegal to have a firearm on that property unless meeting all of the exemptions (i.e. a CWP alone does not appear enough to alone qualify). Which DOES include any building or structure that is part of that School. And that it is Federal law that makes it so. Unless the firearm was there under one of the exemptions in that federal law. And those seem to be as follows:

    Exceptions

    If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtain such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license; which is--

    not loaded; and in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack which is in a motor vehicle; by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone; by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

    It shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm at a place that the person knows is a school zone. However it shall not apply to the discharge of a firearm if on private property not part of school grounds; as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program; by an individual in accordance with a contractentered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or by a law enforcement officer acting in his/her official capacity.

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    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    If your living in your parents home, follow the rules, or move out.
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    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    You Said: There is indeed a federal law though and a permit to carry concealed issued by the state, just by itself, is NOT an exclusions from that law. It reads that it takes a good deal more than that to exclude. It is the "Guns Free School Zones Act of 1990". Section 1702 of the Crime Control Act of 1990 (Pub.L. 101-647, 18 U.S.C. 922(q)) on November 29, 1990


    Answer: Yes there is a federal Law but read the letter from the BATF at Handgunlaw.us http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf
    and it will explain about having a permit that is issued by the state the school is in.


    You Said: As far as I know it is still in effect and law.
    And this Federal law includes private schools as well as Public and even Parochial schools!

    Answer: Yes it does cover private schools but read my reply and it is all based on him having a permit issued by the state of NH.

    You Said: However... I believe that law to be unconstitutional. A similar one was ruled so. And overturned. However Congress passed another one anyway. It should be challenged. I believe it to be wrongly passed and unconstitutional myself.

    Whoever violates the Act shall be fined not more than $5,000, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both.

    Answer: Again this does not matter because if you have a permit issued by the state you are in and you can legallyl carry in the school by that states laws the Fed Law does not apply. Read the BATF on the gun free school zones at http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

    You Said: I don't know if Utah does ignores that or not. You could be wrong. I do know that Colleges and University's are not included in the definition in the Federal law. Just elementary and Secondary schools seem to be targeted by that law. Are you 100% certain that CWP carry in elementary and secondary schools is legal in Utah or anywhere else? And that its not precluded by Federal law? Or are you just assuming that because carry at Colleges and University's is allowed that it also carries down to them? I don't believe so.

    Answer: The Utah Law states that no state agency can ban concealed firearms from their schools. Only Private Schools can so you can carry on Elementary, Secondary and Universities in Utah. Not just colleges. So if you have a UTah Permit the Gun Free School Zone Law does not apply in Utah.

    You Stated:
    To the OP (these are totally just my opinions and hardly error proof):

    1) Since your under 21, a handgun would probably still be under your Fathers responsibility, even if in your possession and him not "supposedly" knowing about it.

    Answer: IT does not matter if he is under 21. If he is 18 he can legally own the firearm in NH. In Fact the federal law only states you can not buy a handgun under 21 but can own one. Especailly if you parents buy it for you as a gift.

    You Stated:
    2) as per #1, he would still be responsible for you since your living under his roof. And so anything he agrees to passes down to you. I don't believe anything can come of it but termination of his lease due to failure to abide by contractual agreement. In other words, they can kick you guys out. All of you.

    Answer: He is not responsible for you as he is 18 and an adult. He can marry, join the millitary or do whatever he wishes. But by living in his fathers house on the campus he must go but the rules of the campus. No law would hold against the father but the rules of the University could be held against the father as he took the housing on campus as part of his job and he is responsible for everything that happens on it per the University. But is not legally responsible for anything his 18 Y/O son does unless he assists him. Buying him a firearm and giving it to him is legal in NH and most other states.

    You Stated:
    3) As far as I can tell, no matter what NH law is and even if this is a private school, it would still be illegal to have a firearm on that property unless meeting all of the exemptions (i.e. a CWP alone does not appear enough to alone qualify). Which DOES include any building or structure that is part of that School. And that it is Federal law that makes it so. Unless the firearm was there under one of the exemptions in that federal law. And those seem to be as follows:

    Exceptions

    If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtain such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license; which is--

    not loaded; and in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack which is in a motor vehicle; by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone; by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

    It shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm at a place that the person knows is a school zone. However it shall not apply to the discharge of a firearm if on private property not part of school grounds; as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program; by an individual in accordance with a contractentered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or by a law enforcement officer acting in his/her official capacity.
    [/QUOTE]

    Answer: Again if the person has a permit that is issued by the state the person is in and the state has no laws against carrying in schools in that state then the only rules broken are the school regulations and no law is violated. The school can run him off and that is about all they can do for possessing a firearm in his fathers house. If he is not a student of the school and he has a permit issued by the state he is in and the state has no laws against carrying in schools then all they can do is ask him to leave and he must leave the school property. The Federal Law has no jurisdiction.

    It all boils down to the state law and what they allow. As for the Federal School ZOne Law we can find no one who has been charged under that law. No One. Not anyone. It is one of those feel good laws that the feds passed to make people feel good. If you read the law it even states that the feds must make the arrests as Local LEO's can not arrest under the School Zone Act. I have studied this law and have talked to many people and may Attorneys about it and the law is almost meaningless. Again we can not find one case where this law was used to charge someone. Can ANyone give me a link to any case? I don't think so.
    Stay Safe,
    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

    Member Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Actually Gary, you see that a person would need to have a CWP and it be a clear function of their job or position too on that school grounds. The reason I said several times that it is not enough JUST to have a CWP from NH. The Exceptions clearly defines who can and who cannot. Its my contention from reading that Federal law that its not enough just to "not have a law precluding carry" but that the state "must have a law allowing carry" for it to be valid. Or an individual condition of employment or something else besides just a CWP process alone. It must be specific to school carry.

    This is the important part of that Clause:

    by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone; by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual

    It is not enough to simply have a CWP. It also must be, for instance, in accordance of the job of that person. For instance the School board would have to make it a condition of employment to carry. Giving permission if you will. Not just a state issued CWP. Its very clear they make a distinction. However it does appear from what your saying that Utah gives that permission? Statewide your saying? Does NH?

    Now I agree that it's unlikely to be enforced unless the feds decide too. Or... unless the state decides to pile it on. There is always that risk.

    As to owning one at 18, this is why I said it might be "likely". I don't know NH law. However there is a void between owning and possessing in his fathers domicile and whether or not his father is claiming him as a dependent too. If he is a Student then he may be. Here I would be advised to write a letter of possession for my Son to keep any pistol I have given him in case it were to be asked. Which I had done for a while. This Son appears to be about to try and buy one and possess it in his fathers domicile without his fathers knowledge. I would not advise that. A father, "may be" held responsible for some things that are actions of a dependent adult living in their household. Particularly if they know about it.

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    Member Array MikeNH's Avatar
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    Gary, I don't want to start a ******* match or anything but I would strongly recommend against carrying on school grounds here, colleges being the exemption. Read through Gun Owners of NH's site www.gonh.org, they have a FAQ on our gun laws and on page 3 it does mention the same passage you quoted about it being ok if you are licensed by the state, but they strongly recommend against doing it. I can't provide any proof but during a meeting held in the school here in town, a gentleman was all but kicked out of the school when the officers attending the meeting found out he was carrying. Someone who may not be as friendly with local officials may indeed find themselves in serious trouble. Again I wish I had something to back this all with, as I'm all but certain that if you get caught carrying on school grounds here you'll end up in a heap of trouble.

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    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    It is not enough to simply have a CWP. It also must be, for instance, in accordance of the job of that person. For instance the School board would have to make it a condition of employment to carry. Giving permission if you will. Not just a state issued CWP. Its very clear they make a distinction.
    Neither given permission, nor a condition of employment. An employee (teacher, janitor, lunch lady) simply CAN carry with a permit. Likewise, a contractor (plumber, electrician, teen waterboarding squad) is also allowed with a permit.

    Parents ? Hmn....

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    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    ... by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual...

    Implies permission must be given in contractual form does it not? Thats how I read it. I could see how a contract could be drawn up for a parent. Does not have to JUST be a condition of employment. Thats just ONE way... There could be other ways I suppose.

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