BGs in Church...a What if...?

This is a discussion on BGs in Church...a What if...? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As some of you know, I am a Pastor in FL. After all the discussions with malls in NE and churches/ministry-related settings in CO and ...

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Thread: BGs in Church...a What if...?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    BGs in Church...a What if...?

    As some of you know, I am a Pastor in FL.

    After all the discussions with malls in NE and churches/ministry-related settings in CO and just the state of things in general, I had a strange Christmas Eve.

    With attendance roughly 1.5 times the normal, there were LOTS of new people (i.e., unknown to me). With everything there was to do to be ready for 2 services, I found myself VERY aware of the new people and the potential for something very bad happening.

    Multiple entrances. Night time. Very crowded. Every backstop was flesh and blood. The twist, both historically, and currently, came when I thought of what some traditions call 'The Massacre of the Innocents.' This was when Herod, the king, had all the boy babies 2 years old and under killed in his attempt to stop the threat that a newborn king would pose to his continuing to reign.

    I just realized what a nightmare it would be should/when something like that ever happen. This was, for me, a somewhat startling observation this Christmas season. I am not asking a question as much as reflecting a little with others who I knew would understand.

    Thanks for being there. You all have taught me much already.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

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    Tis a grand thing that MOST people are good hearted and good natured, but it does make one think.


    Z
    An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.

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    Member Array rwojcik's Avatar
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    I would fight to my last breath for my children. Historically true but I don't think that would get by in our society. Once people find out how emotionally attached one is to their loved ones when they're jeopordized, I think we may see more people re-thinking their stance on self protection or gun control.

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    Member Array RobbW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    Tis a grand thing that MOST people are good hearted and good natured, but it does make one think.


    Z
    +1

    I was thinking the same thing this Christmas. I figured it would take maybe 19-20% of citizens randomly carrying to be a profound discouragement to criminals. The laws are good here in MA once you get your LTC. Churchs are legal for carry.

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    Member Array bones's Avatar
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    This Christmas Eve I carried in two churches.
    4:30 PM at Protestant family services and Midnight Mass at Catholic service.
    At each one I was figuring what I would do, how and when if needed. I also was trying to figure who were the designated guards if any were in place.
    S&W .45 ACP with two extra mags, Surefire light, cellphone, S&W fighting knife. All that is held up with gunbelt & suspenders.
    My gal understands completely why I carry, even in church.
    "There is no such thing as too much ammo. Unless you're swimming!"

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    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    When I was younger, I was an altar boy. One thing I remember about it is that holidays like Christmas and Easter bring out the people that you've never seen before. Our church was packed full on those days and nights (midnight mass) with people who were and weren't members of the church.

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    With your heightened level of awareness and current concerns, if you haven't already done what the Colorado Springs church did regarding volunteer security from within your congregation, I would seriously consider it. I would also take every opportunity to discuss it with fellow pastors at your church and in others. Getting a physical security assessment from a professional security consultant, developing both a security an evacuation plan and forming a security detail from amongst your congregation would be at the top of my "to do" list.

    With all that in place, you might also consider seeing if local law enforcement have any programs where they would come and talk to your members about personal security and awareness. You might also find that you have some members that are in some way connected to a gun shop, range or training organization that would offer additional personal training for the congregation. You're really in a good position to enhance the awareness of your church.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

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    Member Array rainmaker's Avatar
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    Bumper makes good points. Make sure you know what your state's law says in regards to CCW in church, then talk to your council about it. In Ohio, carry in church is expressly forbidden (felony) unless the church posts as OK or extends permission. After VA Tech, our pastor volunteered that the time had come for selected individuals to carry in church. Since then, two/three of us in the congregation with CHL's (and one off duty LEO) carry every service. I'm an elder at church, and Pastor knew I had a CHL for years. Pastor had no problem with it, but I'd carried only on occasion - usually leaving the revolver in the truck, parked close.

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    Senior Member Array Sky Pilot's Avatar
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    You've taken your good first step, Pastor.
    You're aware of what can happen.
    Excellent suggestions precede my posting; I won't presume to improve on already sound advice.
    God's blessings on you, my brother!
    (Past deputy marshal, past Chaplain and past departmental firearms instructor)
    "Deine Papieren bitte?" or "ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ !"
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    "I bark at no man's bid. I will never come and go, and fetch and carry, at the whistle of the great man in the White House no matter who he is." -- David Crockett

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    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    And if something did happen what better way to meet God than by preaching his word!!! I understand you're in no hurry to leave your family and I agree with others who acknowledge being aware of your surroundings is very important. My pastor doesn't carry in church, he says he is hugged to much, but he admits that he feels more comfortable knowing that certain members of his flock aren't SHEEP!!!
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    And if something did happen what better way to meet God than by preaching his word!!! I understand you're in no hurry to leave your family and I agree with others who acknowledge being aware of your surroundings is very important. My pastor doesn't carry in church, he says he is hugged to much, but he admits that he feels more comfortable knowing that certain members of his flock aren't SHEEP!!!
    NCH,

    I had that actual thought, followed closely by "I'm ready to go when God wants me, but not some BG/mentally ill perp with a gun and a vendetta."

    Oh, and I don't buy into any 'this is God's will' stuff when it comes to shootings, etc. I don't believe God does that stuff. People do.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

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    Member Array Hawker's Avatar
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    +1 on what Bumper says.

    Perhaps the Holy Spirit is urging you to take some action now since you have a heightened level of discernment?
    225th SAC "Phantom Hawk" - US Army - Vietnam 1969-70

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    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    It's always best to be prepared for the worst than to bury one's head in the sand and not worry.
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    ...Very crowded. Every backstop was flesh and blood.
    This is exactly why it's a good idea to train well and often and to pay attention to and do as much homework as one can toward their choice of carry ammunition as relative to their own firearm (i.e. short barrel or long).

    Reason being odds are high and great that no matter where you might be in a public space that there will be a humanoid innocent within your background.
    With that understood and assumed one has got to be a good shot. Not necessarily Annie Oakley but combat accurate able to put three rounds of three inside of an 8" paper plate which approximates the heart & lung zone toward an average human COM shot.
    Further it's critical that ones ammo function optimally penetrating the target and as a JHP expanding fully & properly and dumping it's energy into the BGs body as opposed to exiting his body to go into the person, an innocent, standing behind him.
    Yet another reason why headshots in real life are fubar and as discussed in another thread gut, groin, and hip (not pelvis) shots may be most functional and applicable toward a follow up shot(s).

    One other thing, if you are at a close range with innocents in the background it may be wise to crouch down or even take a knee and kneel just before firing to purposefully hit the BG at an upward angle as opposed to straight on or downward if you have a height advantage.
    Reason being if a round misses it'll more likely go over the head of an innocent into the ceiling or high against a wall. Also rounds that hit the BG and possibly exit him will more likely exit at an upward angle as well increasing the chance that the BG will escape injury. There is no rule, of the street, stating that one must fire or engage their target on equal footing from equal or superior height.
    Just a thought.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Member Array Hawker's Avatar
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    Janq- I think this situation requires the advice of what Bumper said more than the "gunfight mechanics" mode. Not that they aren't important, but first things first.

    A security asessment and a plan of action can do alot to avoid ever getting into a situation where there is an armed confrontation.
    225th SAC "Phantom Hawk" - US Army - Vietnam 1969-70

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