The nightstand piece

This is a discussion on The nightstand piece within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Statute quoted below. Also pasted in definition of "dwelling" which rules out cars and RVs, at least under this portion of the statute. Note immunity ...

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Thread: The nightstand piece

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Statute quoted below. Also pasted in definition of "dwelling" which rules out cars and RVs, at least under this portion of the statute. Note immunity from both civil and criminal liability.

    (g) "Dwelling" means a building which is used, intended to be used, or usually used by a person for habitation.

    (1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.

    (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.

    (3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.

    (4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

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  3. #47
    Member Array Kobun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland
    If you mount a light to your weapon, then you are aiming a loaded firearm at whatever you light up. What happens if it turns out to be your wife or child? Use a surefire in the weak hand in a Harries technique, and you can light up a perp (or family member) without such a high degree of risk for an accidental shooting.
    Gary, you don't need to point the light at what you want to look at.
    Shine the beam at the ceiling, wall etc, and you will be able to see what is in the room.
    If you see a threat, then you can shine the light at it, and with a good light you can limit his ability to see.

    Don't limit your options (gun mounted light) just because lack of knowledge. (I'm not saying you didn't know this, only that none of us know everything).

  4. #48
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobun
    Gary, you don't need to point the light at what you want to look at.
    Shine the beam at the ceiling, wall etc, and you will be able to see what is in the room.
    If you see a threat, then you can shine the light at it, and with a good light you can limit his ability to see.

    Don't limit your options (gun mounted light) just because lack of knowledge. (I'm not saying you didn't know this, only that none of us know everything).
    I understand what you are saying - I sold Surefire products at one time, and have a lot of experience with them. They are bright enough to allow you to use the periphery of the beam to illuminate a possible target.
    However, in order to get the full "paralyzing" effect on a BG, then you must center the beam in their eyes. If the light is weapon mounted, then you are also aiming a firearm directly at their head. Furthermore, in a real potentially lethal encounter, the adrenal pump will SUBSTANTIALLY affect your fine motor skills. Your ability to control both the firearm and the light will be greatly diminished. The potential to accidently shoot someone by mistake is simply too great - particularily when it could quite possibly be a family member.
    Learning the Harries technique will totally eliminate this potential for tragedy and give you exactly the same capabilities.
    It's not that I don't know what you are saying - I just absolutely disagree with it. Weapon mounted light systems were developed for military (and some LEO) scenarios in which an area (usually enclosed) is assaulted with the intention of killing everyone inside. (A good example would be CT- Counter Terrorism Ops). This has no place in a civillian self defense situation.

  5. #49
    Member Array Kobun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland
    However, in order to get the full "paralyzing" effect on a BG, then you must center the beam in their eyes. If the light is weapon mounted, then you are also aiming a firearm directly at their head.
    Yes the beam has to be in the INTRUDERS eyes. The topic was home intruders, and those I have no objection pointing a firearm at.
    If you first light up the room off the ceiling to see, and if you spot a BG, then you can redirect the light into their eyes. Of cource, if you spot a family member, then don't point the light and gun at them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Brommeland
    Furthermore, in a real potentially lethal encounter, the adrenal pump will SUBSTANTIALLY affect your fine motor skills. Your ability to control both the firearm and the light will be greatly diminished.
    Yes, I know how that adrenalin dump feels. And that is the point. Handeling a gun and light separately is more difficult than as one unit.

    OK, here we have two philosophies. Both work, so learn both and pick the one most appropriate for your needs.

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array tex45acp's Avatar
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    My Kel-Tec P-11 9mm is kept, in the pocket of my black robe, that is hanging on the bedpost, at the head of my bed. If that is not enough, the closet is 18" away with a miryad of weapons at my disposal, all behind a hidden panel in the closet. I should have plenty of time in either situation as my 65lb dog, that sounds like a great dane when barking, will definately keep any BG at bay long enough for me to aquire my home defense weaponry.
    The only thing needed for evil to exist is for good men to stand by and do nothing!!!

  7. #51
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobun
    Yes the beam has to be in the INTRUDERS eyes. The topic was home intruders, and those I have no objection pointing a firearm at.
    If you first light up the room off the ceiling to see, and if you spot a BG, then you can redirect the light into their eyes. Of cource, if you spot a family member, then don't point the light and gun at them.

    Yes, I know how that adrenalin dump feels. And that is the point. Handeling a gun and light separately is more difficult than as one unit.

    OK, here we have two philosophies. Both work, so learn both and pick the one most appropriate for your needs.
    I strongly disagree. If the light beam is not directed in their eyes at the first blast, you have given your opponent an opportunity to kill you.
    When employing the Harrie's technique, the light can be aimed directly at the subject's face, while the weapon is at a modified "low ready". (This is done by flexing the wrist of the gun hand downward). The target is INSTANTLY I.D.'d, blinded and can be engaged micro seconds later if necessary. You simply cannot do that with a weapon mounted light with any reasonable safety margin when the "target" may turn out to be your spouse or child.
    I am not here to argue with you, and I apologize in advance if I have offended you (or anyone else, for that matter). However, I am a strong believer in personal responsibility (particularily when it involves firearms and the use of deadly force). I do not consider the technique that you are suggesting to be acceptable from a safety standpoint.
    I've pretty well stated my position on this subject, so I am going to put away my "soap box" and get back to making holsters. Thanks for the rant. I wish you all the best.

  8. #52
    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    I am a strong proponent of a weapon-mounted light. It allows superior gun-handling when compared to a handheld flashlight. The disadvantage frequently pointed out is that you may point your weapon at a family member.

    Consider this for a moment. If I wake up in the middle of the night because I hear a "noise" it is a relatively simple matter for me to determine if it could possibly be my wife. She is either in the bed or not. Now, I do not have children, but if I did, having determined that the "noise" was not my wife and it required further investigation and I needed to be armed when conducting the investigation, the first place I would go would be to my child/children's room(s). Ditto a visitor/relative. In other words, I account for the location of all my "friendlies" first. This takes care of 99.9% of potential opportunities where one might possibly point a loaded weapon at a loved one.

    The remaining .01% are the wildcards like a surprise visit from a college age child. If I have accounted for all family members and I feel I need to continue to investigate the source of the "noise" armed, you can bet that I am willing to destroy the source of said "noise" right up until the point that I determine its Junior home from college two days early, at which point I stop pointing my gun at him.

    Your ability to control both the firearm and the light will be greatly diminished. The potential to accidently shoot someone by mistake is simply too great - particularily when it could quite possibly be a family member.
    I have to respectfully disagree with this statement though I certainly understand the sentiment behind it. Firearms are pointed at people in stressful situations all of the time without anyone being shot. Pointing a gun at someone is serious business, never to be taken lightly, but it is not an accident waiting to happen.

    I am mindful that everyone's circumstances are not my own, nor does everyone share my viewpoint. It is a simple matter for me to account for my loved ones, but this may not be the case for other people. I realize that other people may not be as confident of their ability to safely manage their weapon in a stressful situation and this may drive them to use different tactics or equipment. I can respect that.

    What matters is that each of us has identified our specific needs, selected a system that meets those needs, and built proficiency with that system.

  9. #53
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    My .02 is that in MY circumstances, with no children in my home, two LARGE dogs and a security system anybody in my home that has entered by stealth or force is an enemy combatant. The Harries technique is a valid one (speaking as an Instructor) but not ideal. The idea of pointing the gun "down" while employing this technique won't.... IMHO..... work under extreme stress as some other poster pointed out there is too much going on to activate and manipulate gun and light independently. I was trained by the army that my muzzle is always in the same direction in which I'm looking. I can do that better with a mounted light. As soon as I can afford one on a history teacher's salary; I'll do that.

    But it's a bedside gun. MY bedside. If I were visiting friends or family out of town; I'll still be armed, but since it's no longer MY bedside, I'll have just my regular 6P or my new pentagon light (http://www.pentagonlight.com) and it'll be the Harries technique for me! Also, a gun with a mounted light is tough to conceal IWB and I would imagine the draw to be equally difficult. Those were made to be used in the proverbial tactical thigh holster.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #54
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    Before my son was born I slept bareassed and kept my blaster on the floor under my crumpled undies.

    I could grab my gun and scare the crap out of the bad guy with my large white nakedness. While he was screaming in fear, I would dispatch him.

    Now, my home is secured to where entry would be noted by various devices and dealt with before bg could manuever. wife stays in room with 1187police, I move to son's room with handgun. 911 called. This can be done quickly with minimal risk or chance of interception by bgs for reasons I won't get into here.

    Home defense is a game of barricading safely 'til the cavalry arrives unless you live in BFE. (that's a whole different can o worms).

    Gunmounted lights are for when I'm going hunting.

  11. #55
    Member Array Variable's Avatar
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    ExSoldier,

    I'm curious how your situation was handled when the LEO's arrived? Did they assume you, the victims were armed? Did you inform them on the phone? You said you cleared the house, does that mean they skipped over clearing your house too?

    Ive always wondered how I would handle that if 911 was called. I dont know if I would have the time or composure to make sure I told the operator I am armed and my description, etc, or perhaps tell the officers not to enter the house but just put up a perimeter. I have family on each end of the house and there are multiple entrys, I could see family members coming out of their rooms at the wrong time only to get shot by a nervous LEO. So currently I'm thinking I would have to do the house clearing myself. (yes, yes, I know, tactical suicide clearing solo). Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts....

    I sleep with my bedroom doors locked. Gun close by.

  12. #56
    Member Array joe/OH's Avatar
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    I would never point a gun at anything until I had identified the target. Just something Dad taught me as a boy that I don't wish to unlearn. As far as accounting for children - that might be harder than it sounds. I remember one night as a teenager, sneaking back into the house through the kitchen window after having sneaked out. (Teenagers DO do stupid things.) Luckily Dad didn't have a flashlight mounted .357 or else I would have been looking down the barrel of his Ruger.

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variable
    ExSoldier,

    I'm curious how your situation was handled when the LEO's arrived? Did they assume you, the victims were armed? Did you inform them on the phone? You said you cleared the house, does that mean they skipped over clearing your house too?

    Ive always wondered how I would handle that if 911 was called. I dont know if I would have the time or composure to make sure I told the operator I am armed and my description, etc, or perhaps tell the officers not to enter the house but just put up a perimeter. I have family on each end of the house and there are multiple entrys, I could see family members coming out of their rooms at the wrong time only to get shot by a nervous LEO. So currently I'm thinking I would have to do the house clearing myself. (yes, yes, I know, tactical suicide clearing solo). Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts....

    I sleep with my bedroom doors locked. Gun close by.

    In my case, the cops showed up with a K9 and they stayed outside and tracked the BG through the nearby yards when they found the thorn bush and blood evidence and tracked THAT. When the officers entered my home they skipped the clearance. Since I'd already done it (but never told them that) it didn't occur to me that they over looked the procedure until you just now brought it up. That was 1996. Almost 10 years ago! But then we have a pretty small home, just shy of 2000 sq ft. I guess the cops figured our dog would've sniffed out any threats. There was no need to discuss firearms, the encounter was hand to hand. They didn't need to see my collection.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #58
    Member Array jmiked's Avatar
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    A Different Slant

    Our defense is a outer perimeter model. House is typical Southwest Slump Block. Only opening at night is the Dog Door in the Arizona room. That entry is patrolled by 125 lbs of Belgian/Lab cross and 130 lbs of Doberman. Due to the sleep habits of my wife and live in father, someone is normally awake at all times. Any intruder has already commited a Felony under AZ law. Shoot First.

    PS

    I used to do the Network for the local LEO's, who nicknamed this place "Fortress Jmiked". (Real Name ommited for Security reasons)

    :1saufen:

  15. #59
    Member Array BerettaMan's Avatar
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    My Beretta 8045F sleeps under my pillow. The two dogs sleep in the hall.
    "The Day We Lose The Second Amendment Will Be The Day We Start The Second Revolution"
    "I Didn't Vote For Him"!

  16. #60
    Senior Member Array Roadrunner's Avatar
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    I've been keeping my Kel-Tec inside of the nightstand drawer, and just last night I started keeping my new Commander on the middle shelf of the nightstand (it has a top and two levels). This keeps it out of immediate sight and prevents me from knocking it over when I fumble around for the alarm in the morning.
    - Kurt
    “Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it.” ~Pericles of Athens
    Primary Carry - Colt Commander .45 in a Brommeland Max-Con V

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