Chamber Empty ("Israeli") Carry Re-revisited

Chamber Empty ("Israeli") Carry Re-revisited

This is a discussion on Chamber Empty ("Israeli") Carry Re-revisited within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The old thread(s) have died their (probably deserved) deaths, but I just came accross this and found it interesting. During those previous discussions, it was ...

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Thread: Chamber Empty ("Israeli") Carry Re-revisited

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array OPFOR's Avatar
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    Chamber Empty ("Israeli") Carry Re-revisited

    The old thread(s) have died their (probably deserved) deaths, but I just came accross this and found it interesting. During those previous discussions, it was brought up that chamber empty carry had demonstrably saved some lives (although I still maintain that not pulling the trigger is just as good, but that's another story), and that it had never been shown, in a real life scenario, to be a detriment. Well, Masad Ayoob has found at least one (from http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...8/ai_110457294):

    In the Southwest, a well-intentioned good guy who was apparently a little ambivalent about his choice, decided to carry a gun. He purchased a Glock 23 and kept it in a fanny pack, loaded with a magazine of .40 S&W training ammunition but with nothing in the chamber.

    The day came when he was faced with armed robbers. He grabbed the Glock out of the fanny pack and tried to chamber a round but fumbled with the slide and jammed his pistol. The robbers shot him down. He survived--and sued Glock, Incorporated.

    In the Southeast, a jeweler decided to augment his alarm system and security cameras with a gun on his person. He chose a Walther PPK .380, carried with a round in the chamber and on-safe, and virtually never practiced shooting it. His own security cameras captured the chilling moment when he pulled his .380 on a robber who had walked in with .38 revolver in-hand. In the chilling video-tape, the jeweler can be seen to whip out the little auto, point it at the gunman, and pull the trigger repeatedly. The pistol does not discharge. The gunman is then seen to extend his arm toward the jeweler and pump him full of lead with the revolver. The jeweler falls and the robber flees.

    The jeweler survived to admit he had forgotten to release his thumb safety. When asked gently by an interviewer if he had ever practiced with his gun, the jeweler replied indignantly and defensively, "Hey, I'm not Rambo!" He blamed the gun for losing the upper hand his obvious courage had earned him, and reportedly now carries a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver.

    The last two cases remind us that often, it is user-error that causes the gun to fail to shoot when defensive fire is desperately needed. A man not confident enough in his ability to carry a chamber-loaded semiautomatic pistol is better served with a revolver. Operating the slide before firing is a complex psycho-motor skill of the kind that does not survive stress well, and it's normally a two-handed operation. The history of gunfighting shows us at least half the time, we will fire our handgun one-handed when attacked by surprise. The gun must be in a condition that allows one-handed operation.
    Emphasis is OPFOR's, ideas should be universal... We'll save the "why I don't like external safeties" for another thread.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.


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    I have a friend who needs to read this.

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    thats why I prefer wheel guns or heavy triggered autos with no saftey and one in the pipe. Wife used a wheel gun because she practices only 3-5 times yearly. Same thing i'm coaching my parents with, revolver. Easy for the 70 year olds to remember (point at bad guy, squeeze trigger, go boom!)

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    Wink

    Well, I can pretty much guarantee that any normal human being who has been carrying and practicing with a Colt 1911 for any reasonable length of time will never forget to thumb off the safety.
    I never forget where the gas petal is when I want my car to move forward either.

    Now this could possibly be a different story.
    "He grabbed the Glock out of the fanny pack and tried to chamber a round but fumbled with the slide and jammed his pistol."

    If there ever IS a time when you will fumble your feed of a round into the chamber it is when the AXE Handle is a few feet away from caving your skullcap down into your neck. And you may need to sacrifice your support arm to prevent the machete from cutting your head clean off.
    If the support arm is fending off a surprise "violent attack in progress" it sure ain't racking the gun slide at the very same time.
    And then ain't the time to be racking your slide on yer bluejeans pocket neither.
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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    The Israeli carry thing should die.

    It's an unnecessary mode of carry with a modern properly maintained and functioning firearm.
    Further why give the BG an added advantage to kill you?
    I say "added" because the BG already has the drop on you to start knowing he is going to attack you while you likely will not, thus from the start being behind the curve.
    The Israeli's don't even do this method anymore.

    QK I train and do click off the safety as soon as the front site clears the holster.
    Bad guys don't carry safety on and it's only cops and GGs who will bring a firearm to bear and do so with the safety on. Just another reason like fumbling with the weapon to charge it that will get a good guy gut shot.

    I bet the BGs laughed at the Glock guy as he lay there moaning and bleeding out with his non functional jam-o-matic in hand.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Oh, I am sure there are stories of people forgetting the safeties on their 1911s, much to their detriment. On the other hand, Ayoob also has a number of stories where cops didn't get shot when BGs took away their weapons because those weapons were disabled by mag disconnects or external safeties. A number of these are recounted in his book, The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense, making the argument in favor of semi-autos precisely because they do have such features.

    Of course, the LEO case is different from the CCW private citizen. Anybody who is open-carrying very obviously has a weapon that a badguy may try to use, therefore retention issues are more serious. The LEO also often has the advantage of being able to put a hand on his gun and perhaps even draw it in advance of active hostilities, thus emphasizing safety and retention. The person carrying concealed, though, probably does need to emphasize minimizing the time to trigger because he is already at a reaction disadvantage.

    Now, I certainly believe that somebody could train to be sufficiently effective carrying chamber empty. The fact that the guy in Ayoob's story sued Glock makes me have a low opinion of him to start with, and makes me believe that he didn't train much with his weapon, and therefore his fear of his own gun was stronger than his desire to defend himself.

    I don't want to carry CE. I might ask my local IDPA folks to let me shoot a match that way just to let me get a feel for it, though.

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    The Israeli carry thing should die.
    Agreed Janq!!!

    we will fire our handgun one-handed when attacked by surprise. The gun must be in a condition that allows one-handed operation.
    My take exactly.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Well, I don't really feel the need to be responsible for anybody elses bacon but my own and my loved ones.
    So no matter to me how somebody else feels "comfortable" carrying.
    Whatever floats the old boat.
    My advice to anybody I don't know is "Carry how you want to carry."
    I don't want anybody sueing me because I told them to carry with one in the chamber.

    If anybody likes their pistol in Condition "Wait A Second I'm Not Quite Ready To Defend Myself Yet."..that's just fine with me.
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    Whats the point of carrying with an empty chamber?

    If one questions his/her own ability with a loaded weapon, they shouldn't be carrying in the first place.

    When bad things happen,they happen fast. Having to THINK to use both hands to chamber a round to fend off an attack, should be the LAST thing on your mind.

    In my opinion, anyone that carries with an empty chamber is setting themselves up for failure. In a gunfight, failing means dying.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    I've never forgotten to release the safety when hunting pheasants, ducks, or geese! Simple matter of muscle memory.

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    Are we doing this again?
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    I just wanted to post the example - I think the argument in general has been beaten to death, but the lack of a real world situation had been brought up, so, here it is.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #13
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    Are we doing this again
    Not quite. We are doing it from a different perspective,one where the evidence proves that the wannabe shooter(although he never quite made the shot) choked and nearly got killed for it.

    Why someone that dosent feel comfortable enough to carry a round in the chamber and think that they could jack one in when their life in is danger and they are in the awshucks mode is beyond me. Thats a liberal thought process that is very flawed.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    It really isn't rocket science... If you do not have a round in the chamber of a semi automatic pistol, you are NOT carrying a loaded weapon!

    To quote Mas,

    "A man not confident enough in his ability to carry a chamber-loaded semiautomatic pistol is better served with a revolver. Operating the slide before firing is a complex psycho-motor skill of the kind that does not survive stress well, and it's normally a two-handed operation. The history of gunfighting shows us at least half the time, we will fire our handgun one-handed when attacked by surprise. The gun must be in a condition that allows one-handed operation."
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

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    Talking It seems So

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Are we doing this again?
    Oh...whatever was old is new again in 2008.
    We're starting fresh and anew SIXTO.
    Carrying with the chamber empty in 2007 was not such a great idea but, now we're into a brand new year...so things might have changed since then.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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