If you had too

If you had too

This is a discussion on If you had too within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thinking, once more, of long range useage of handgun. If you had to lay down some sort of suppressive fire, due to incoming from distance ...

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Thread: If you had too

  1. #1
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    If you had too

    Thinking, once more, of long range useage of handgun.

    If you had to lay down some sort of suppressive fire, due to incoming from distance - we'll assume light carbine or rifle. Then I got to thinking, and this is in part linked to my old days long range shooting - if you need to shoot out to long range, like 100 yards and more, you can at least hedge bets by straddling the target area.

    By this I mean - make each shot compensated in different ways. Make one a 12 o'clock hold let's say with foresight very high. Add more with foresight up and to right and then to left. Chances are - you'll achieve a hit and even if energy levels way down - it'll possibly do damage!

    Best of course if your range has the distance, to try this for yourself. I admit the likelehood of needing this is low to zero but - sure as heck strikes me it is good to know what you can do if really ''stretched"
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


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    Allow me to be a brat here for a second. Distance = 100 yards. Enemy with a long gun. Me with a handgun.
    You want me to engage one on one?

    While I am playing mortar with my handgun, the other guy, if he is half decent shot, will cream my sorry butt. If you don't mind, I rather stay put behind heavy cover or run away like crazy doing all kinds of zig zags and feinting moves.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    And people look at me funny for having a handgun I can reliably hit human silhoettes with and retain enough velocity and hurt someone. ;0

    It's why I like small and extremely, extremely fast in the .357 Sig - drop isn't much of an issue against a human-sized target and it's still going fast enough to hurt a lot.

    And I have 14 on tap.

    Given a choice, I don't want to engage someone with a rifle at that distance, but Murphy has shown me in the real world I don't get to pick my battles.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

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    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    I think it's a good idea to at least know what you and your handgun are capable of at long distance. (note to self, buy posterboard before next range visit).

    I remember reading an article a couple years ago (wish I could remember where) about a police department that was involved in a stand-off situation with a guy armed with an old Mauser rifle. Unfortunately, none of the officers had rifles and there was no cover within about 75 yards of the house where the guy was "holed up." Eventually they got him, I think a highway-patrollman showed up who did have a rifle. IIRC, the shooter got killed or wounded 5 or 6 officers before they took him down.
    Anyway, this incident resulted in some patrol-rifles for their officers (duh!). They also made long-distance handgun shooting part of their training so they'd have a chance if they were ever caught without a rifle again.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    With my hunting rifles that are designed for ultra close ranges(Beretta Storm in .45ACP etc.) I always punch paper. I hang a long(5' or so) piece of meat wrap out at various diatances. I put a 3" wide stripe horrizonally across the top of it. This is my aim point. I shoot at it at just to see the drops at what ranges(I use a Laser). With CC or hunting pistol I do the same only I use 30,50,70,and 100yards. With pistol I am primarily concerned with right/left. I always ensure that my CC weapon is dead on R/L. with certin loads some of my pistols are just a tad high or low. My Kimber 3" is 1.5" high at 10yds. I can live with this. I could change ammo. I could change sight(S). Simple is better. With a COM shot at 7-10 yds max---oops,hit 1.5" high---oh well. The only reason that I punch paper at these longer distances is that IF I had to lay down surpressing fire at 100yds.,I could hit close enough to the BG to hopefully keep his head down so I could retreat. But--- it is surprising how close you can come to your target at 100yds. with a 3" .45,230gr. bullet.------

  6. #6
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    RSSZ - yep - this is all I am thinking really. Just an excercize to have some pre knowlege of drop on a given cal and platform.

    I agree with Miggy - we are not gonna need this from choice much if ever. I sure would prefer a getaway from any rifle incoming.

    However - if sniper was sloppy or using a poor platform, and - I was somehow pinned in a position - just that outside possibility of getting off a ''shot cluster'', as accurate as poss' - and maybe sufficient to give that vital few seconds for a dash to a better position.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    10-4 P95, During these times you're truly defensive only. I would not worry 'bout COM, is he(they)wearing body armor,how many are their,what kind of weapons/scopes do they have,etc. I would put myself in the best purely defensive position that I could,and wait to see if anybody came within MY range. If so,the tables would turn on them. Now at say 30yds.,I would have the best weapon. While they are trying to find me in their scope I would be shootin'. These sanerio's would be few and far between. It would probably be that you just happened upon something already in progress. But---I sure want to get a feel for where my weapon will hit at xxx yds/ft. With a .45 (as long as you are dead on L/R) you can hold top of BG's head and put one on his pubic line and north out quite far. If you just want to keep his head down,I can hit a 55gal. drum quite regularly out at 200yds. I don't practice this on a regular basis but it IMO is good to know these things.---------- Also,when a 230gr.HP out of a 3"bbl hits a 55gal. drum at 200yds---it goes right through it.

  8. #8
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    some of the old timers who handgun hunted would add extra lines to the front sight for more repeatable sight picture. While not very useful for defense it is fun to shoot long range with handguns.

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    Thumbs up Keith & Jordan

    were two "Hold Over" handgun champions.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    were two "Hold Over" handgun champions.

    Thank QKshooter, could remember the names right off. I read 1 account of Elmer Keith shooting game at 400 yrds. + with his 4" barrelled .44 mag. revolver. Took 5 shots but he got it.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    ...Best of course if your range has the distance, to try this for yourself. I admit the likelehood of needing this is low to zero but - sure as heck strikes me it is good to know what you can do if really ''stretched"
    I think it is very important to know the limits of what you and your pistol are capable of. My pistol is far more accurate than I am. At 100 yds, my standard load 125gr .357SIG is moving at about 1050fps with a drop of about 3". So the error is much more in my ability to hold my pistol on target.
    - Tom
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  12. #12
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    P45Carry,
    In one of my classes Gunsite, we did a "here's-what-it's-like-to-shoot-a-handgun-at-100 yds-drill". Most of us were shooting 1911 .45s. We were shooting at a 12"x12" steel plate from a prone position.

    It took a while to get the "knack" of it both in terms of obtaining a stable shooting platform (roll-over prone), the proper sight picture, and trigger control. The bullet drop really was the easy part, the other three things mentioned above is the hard part. I hit the plate a couple of times and had some very close misses.

    I find that we, well, ok, I, get a little sloppy because I practice at those magic "most likely" distances out to about 15 feet. You, well again, I, can get away with some things at short range that will cause a miss by a mile at longer ranges. One reason to shoot regularly at long ranges is to slow ourselves down and make us think about position, sight picture, and trigger control. Up close, I know I, tend to shoot too fast in practice.

    Just like yesterday, I shot 100 rounds through my USP and another 100 through my Glock 17 at about 7 yards. When I finished I realized I was seeing how fast I could shoot each gun and hit a 10" paper plate. When it was over and I was on my way home, I realized I would have been much better off if I had exercised sight picture and trigger control in slow fire for 200 rounds than what I did. Oh well, next time...

    I've also observed that there seems to be an effect that's different up close and far off - you can see the target much better and more details at near ranges. Up close we can see that little X or bullseye and put the sights right on it. The ole, "aim small, miss small" idea. But at 100 yards, we can't see the target as well, much less the details, so we are aiming at COM instead of at an X, etc. so are we now "aiming large and hitting large?" I think so.

    It is my personal belief that shooting at near targets and shooting at far targets are two different things, and that we need to do both.

    We all pretty much concede that one on one against a rifle is not a good idea. But, as you said, "If you had to...", it would be much worse to go one on one against a rifle with little or no practice at long distance shooting.

  13. #13
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    Tangle - indeed - close and far are two very different critters. Most of my shooting, like you and many here I suspect, is classic 21 feet stuff and pretty quick. I do tho when I can use about any potential carry piece out to 100 at least, as part a range session.

    Where I shoot IDPA we have a very handy steel plate at 100, and one at 200 - so odd times it is handy to send a few down that way, usually standing I admit but still - keeping some sorta ''feel'' for how to do it.

    Bottom line we could say is - ''know thy piece - and all it can (and can't) do''
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  14. #14
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    I am fortunate that our range has four steel IDPA shaped and size targets at 75 yards. Standing Weaver, aiming at just one of them, I can usually hit five out of five at a rate of about one shot per 1.5 - 2 seconds.

    ''know thy piece - and all it can (and can't) do''. You are so right and I'm going to remember that piece of wisdom!

    Yesterday to my horror, my G-17 was shooting about 18" high and 6" to the left at 75 yards. I have no idea why! It took five shots to figure that out, then by holding on the bottom right edge of the target, I could get just about five for five hits even with the sights off that much. ''know thy piece - and all it can (and can't) do''.

    I alternately shot my USP and G-17 to see if I could recall the sighting idiosyncrasies of each gun. The USP shot a bit low at 75 yards. My experience at the range yesterday, and then reading "know thy piece...", etc. really makes the point for me!

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