The gender factor

The gender factor

This is a discussion on The gender factor within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; We saw just the other day - a killing of a prison guard by a woman, while trying to ''rescue'' her hard-case husband (seems too ...

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Thread: The gender factor

  1. #1
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    The gender factor

    We saw just the other day - a killing of a prison guard by a woman, while trying to ''rescue'' her hard-case husband (seems too she made a bigamous marriage in prison - but that is incidental).

    I reckon BG's are perhaps 90% or more of the BG total - is this about right? I wonder tho because as a guy I wonder if I might be influenced by gender if under threat. Guys who beat their wives sicken me and I am a strictly ''never hit a woman'' person myself. I mean of course in normal domestic circumstances, day to day etc.

    If presented by a threat from an armed female tho I just wonder - would I hestitate that bit too long? Possibly not but unsure.

    Is it the testosterone that makes guys the majors in BG category? Not really sure but I don't think of women as being that likely if confronted. Maybe I should take a step back and rethink?
    Chris - P95
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  2. #2
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    Intent to do anything - including harm - is not a gender specific trait.

    Allow me to clarify, Criminals are not wired like law abiding folks - hence the label "criminal". Every human being has impulses, no matter the gender - the sane control - the insane or criminal do not / cannot these impulses.

    i.e. "do you hear the voices?" is the classic Schizophenic question - correct response " no I do not hear them, I know the voices are real to you though".

    Life experiences have proven to me - being complacent in regard to age, gender, physical size...etc. Is a BIG mistake when "reading folks".

    One of the things I do personally is to shoot female targets.

    I learned somethings when I was very very young.

    1) I saw the results of Males not taking immediate action against a female in a real life situation.

    2) I observed at a Range - both Males and Females were presented targets at - to simulate a female Criminal ( wig, lipstick, dress, breasts...) Hesitation to draw and aquire target. The Tueller drill blew folks totally away. They just stood there and froze.

    Try it, dress a teddy as a teenage girl, 40-ish lady, a 60-is one.

    Do a female scarecrow...let this be the Tueller. The when the person gets "hit" remind them they are dead. They may have laughing an making snide remarks...dead is forever...remind them of that.

    Same applies to a "kid" , and "elderly" person.

    FWIW, a male dressed like a feeble old lady with a model 29 ain't very damn funny in real life. Especially when they use rope and tie folks up leaving with the goods.

    I practice to stop and immediate threat...no respector of who,what or whatever that "threat" is.

    I play for keeps - lest I not make it back...
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    Hey Steve

    Good advice - can't fault it and I know some is based on the ''hard school of knocks'' eh!

    I have to make sure more and more I see ''threat'' as a genderless event - only way to go.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Hello Chris!

    Same problem the military had back when in getting folks to actually shoot the enemy. Psychologists had to change the mindset in training. Seems the PC term "target" did not transition to "enemy" in war. Damn "targets" were shooting first with AK's, ambushing, coming thru the wire...

    There was a time folks grew up with guns in the home and learned to shoot. Nation of rifleman if you will. These folks knew woodcrafts, awareness of surroundings, their weapons and loads. Off to war these folks knew the difference in killing what once was live from hunting, versus shooting the target to sight in the weapon. Awareness and woodscraft skills worked in War.

    I have said it before - my best students were Ladies. They did NOT have any "inherited" ideas of shooting, did NOT have the "John Wayne" gene, did not play video games...they listened, they learned, they practiced.

    Hardest folks to teach - young males used to playing video games with guns and such.

    Too many parallels in all this IMO.
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    I think I have mentioned this one here before. A local PD ran a training scenario with a woman assailant. Failure to act in the appropriate manner in the appropriate amount of time led to your partner being downed and possibly you being downed. As it was related to me the divorced male officers and female afficers performed the best in the scenario most often moving to deadly force early enough to "save" their partner and themselves. Single males were next with married males falling in the worst performing catagory.

    For me a threat is a threat. When I was younger I may have hesitated if presented with a female assailant, not at my current age and experience.

    -Scott-

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    In answer to your 3rd paragraph, Chris, in my personal experience...no.

    When I took my "Shoot, Don't Shoot" training as a reserve LEO I didn't hesitate to shoot a female threat.

    Our community had quite a few "regular customers" who were alcohol dependent females. They were usually combative. They got zero slack because of their gender when the time came to "lower the boom" on them. We were pretty cautious not to allow ourselves to be bitten by them, which was one of their favorite tactics. We considered them every bit as much a threat as any male.
    If you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes.

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    The last time I was in a fight with anything female I was still in grade school.

    She came at me as hard as she could in full view of a lot of witnesses. I put my hands up in front of me and blocked, and crossed one leg over the other in case she went for the old shot to the cajones. She didn't hurt me (it was like being pummeled by a housecat) but I did get a series of paper cut style wounds on the backs of my hands and across my forearms.

    I still have a scar on the back of my left hand. I mention this story that happened when I was a kid for two reasons:

    #1. There were a lot of onlookers including two teachers, one male and one female. Neither of them stepped in to break it up. The fact is it lasted less than a minute and she eventually backed off in frustration, but neither of them did anything to stop her.

    #2. The only reason, and I repeat the only reason, that I didn't get in any kind of trouble was that I had lots of witnesses who saw the whole thing from beginning to end and none of them saw me so much as look at her mean. She attacked me. All I did was block.

    Now given these observations on human nature, I submit that there is a consideration to be made here.

    A man attacks you with a crowbar and you shoot him and he dies en route to the hospital. There are no witnesses or video etc. They pull his record and yours. Yours is clean and he's a repeat offender wanted on two counts of assault. He's a piece of human scum, murder charges are dropped, and you are on your own to deal with the civil lawsuit. You filed first, so you win.

    However, a woman attacks you with a crowbar and you shoot her and she dies en route to the hospital. There are no witnesses or video etc. They pull her record and yours. Yours is clean and she should be a repeat offender wanted on two counts of assault, but the justice system being what it is when she's picked up she spends a few hours in a holding cell and she's out on the street. After all women don't commit violent crimes and if they do it's the fault of the guy they were with . I see that happen with juveniles all the time. She was just poor widdle woman trying to fight off the big bad man. You my friend are going to jail the instant that all female jury who will inevitably be of a certain maturity sees her photograph and finds out she involved in a domestic violence altercation seven years ago, never mind the fact she was the aggressor.

    Not to mention in any civil lawsuit they are going to drill you with the gender angle. Now I realize that this is all null and void if you didn't do what you had to do in the first place and all that, but in today's world we have a strong culture of misandry . In any cross gender battle who always loses?

    I read somewhere that a woman is most likely to lose her kids in a retail store and a man is most likely to lose them in a court room. We have a Violence Against Women Act not a violence against people act. Say something like you don't think women should be killed in front like combat and you are a fascist jerk, but if a man is discriminated against for his gender well you know what he's a chauvinist jerk who had it coming.

    Don't be so quick to say "Well I'm an equal opportunity asskicker." You may very well be, but this is one time when escape if possible is very much in your best interest.

    I often tell my students that there are a lot of things in this world you have to do that aren't right but you do it anyway to protect yourself because that's how it is. For example I have to pay for insurance in case someone without insurance hits my truck. I shouldn't have to do it. But if I don't, I'm just hurting myself. You shouldn't have to worry about the gender of your attacker and how you handle it, but you know what, that's how it is.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott
    I think I have mentioned this one here before. A local PD ran a training scenario with a woman assailant. Failure to act in the appropriate manner in the appropriate amount of time led to your partner being downed and possibly you being downed. As it was related to me the divorced male officers and female afficers performed the best in the scenario most often moving to deadly force early enough to "save" their partner and themselves. Single males were next with married males falling in the worst performing catagory.

    For me a threat is a threat. When I was younger I may have hesitated if presented with a female assailant, not at my current age and experience.

    -Scott-
    yep, as someone who is divorced, believe me , I know what females are capable of. LOL. seriously though, this makes lots of sense. especially those of us who were brought up to respect women.

  9. #9
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    Hmmm...interesting discussion.

    Some of the most radical fights Ive ever been in as a Deputy have involved women,usually less than 145 pounds,always hovering around the 5 foot to 5'6" range and some of the methheads look as poor as a snake.They'll fight you in the drop of a hat and they they will stop at nothing to try to hurt you.

    Its always amazed me how most guys I arrest wont consider resisting arrest, but some itty bitty women would fight like they were demon possesed.

    Just last week one of our deputys brought in a prisoner and before he got to the detention center he called out for "all hands on deck" meaning that he had an extremely combative prisoner that he was gonna need assistance with. This prisoner had kicked out both of his rear door windows and could be heard yelling and screaming like a maniac in the backgorund. It was an itty bitty thing that had somehow got her handcuffs in front of her and was beating him with both hands clasped. I dont think it was hurting him much, but she was cussing and spitting and kicking and carrying on like nobodys business. When he finally sprayed her down, it just seemed to aggravate her more. He had eventually grabbed one of her cuffs and twisted it till she went to the ground, where everyone pigpiled her.A hood and a straightjacket was wrapped around her and she spent several hours in the cell like that.

    Another guy was shot by his exgirlfriend 12 times by a .22 pistol. She had got mad at their breakup and shot him until the pistol was empty, hitting him multiple times in the chest. Fortunatley it didnt kill him. He had a gun under the seat of the truck when being shot and it was sitting in his lap when the EMTS got there. When he was later interviewed at the hospital after he stabilized and asked why he didnt shoot in self defense, he said "because she is a woman" and he just counld'nt bring himself to do it. He said that he would have shot a guy in a heartbeat but that he was brought up never to hit a woman or assault one.

    With our young guys that have just graduated and on FTO, it seems that all of them display some reservations when it coms to apprehending a woman. The first few times around, they just dont know how to act. After they have been hurt a time or two by one, they start coming around and doing what they must.

    Call me old fashioned...I just dont think women ought to be on the front lines when it comes to battle. Even though I would like to think that I would shoot a woman that is pointing a gun at me...

    it just aint natural.

    I hope that I never face that situation. Its hard enough to shoot a man pointing a gun at you, it just seems like killing a woman would complicate things,even if completely justified.

  10. #10
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    Similiar situations

    I spent a few years at a weapons depot in Europe where one of the major concerns were European terrorists. The concern was the use females with babies as willing human shields and that our MP's would not shoot. The guards had many sessions with shrinks on this to get them to understand that it was "okay" to use deadly force in this situation. We were still concerned they would not do so. Thankfully we never had to find out.

    In a real case not too long ago. A Wyoming Highway Patrol officer shot and killed a woman he had stopped for DUI. She had fought with him and taken his batton away from him and hit him with it once temporarily stunning him. When he "woke up" she was trying to get in another lick - he shot and killed her. It was all on tape and ruled justifable use of deadly force.

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    You think people react slower to a female threat, wait to you see someone run through a scenario with a preteen as the threat.
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    A man holding a smoking gun over the limp body of a woman just seems to make the man look bad, even if he is the victim who defended himself. It's unfortunate, but as if the media isn't bad enough in dealing with gun owners, they'd have a field day describing how a 200 pound man in the prime of this life and in prime physical condition shot dead a 100 pound woman, conveniently dismissing the fact that she was wielding a large knife and a step away from splaying his guts. It's the same thing with a teenage gangbanger; he's not the homicidal thug who wants to kill you for some street cred, he's a "disadvantaged youth, another victim of gun violence."

    It's my disadvantage that I'm a woman because I'm perceived as an "easier target" for some thug who wants to do me harm, but it's also my advantage in that they don't expect me to fight back as hard as I can. I don't think I'd have the problem of hesitating on a female target because I don't have the "don't hurt women" schooling many men were raised with. I also wasn't raised to be a co-dependent female who relied on a man to come to my rescue. I also think that any legal proceedings after a shooting would be more likely to be easier for me than it would be for most of you guys.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

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    This is one situation that I've honestly never thought of, even though I've kinda been in it. I say kinda because there werent any weapons invovled, it was just H2H.

    I did hesitate, I never struck her, I just stayed defensive. She got more chances to walk away than any man would have got, and she finally walked away after failing to make contact with something other than my hands or forearms. Today, I dont know how I would react. H2H, probably the same. If a weapon comes into play, your guess is as good as mine.

    I dont think it will be a problem with the men of future generations though. Manners are slowly being bred out of society.

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Interesting read, "Shoot The Women First". By an Isralie, IIRC, and discusses the visciousness and greater brutality of female agressors, which led the IDF to.......shoot them first.

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