This is a discussion on Editorial from The Daily Telegraph, reported on MCRGO within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; find this on m.c.r.g.o. today.thought i would share letter. (mods. if already posted please remove or what ever you guys do with repeated posts.sorry, but ...
find this on m.c.r.g.o. today.thought i would share letter.
(mods. if already posted please remove or what ever you
guys do with repeated posts.sorry, but dont know procedure)
anyway not too long i dont think but here goes.State figures dispel anti-gun predictions
Wednesday, January 9, 2008 10:23 AM EST
At issue: A look back at Michigan’s concealed carry gun law, six years after it took effect.
Our view: Data indicates law-abiding citizens, given a chance to make good choices, have led to improved safety as well as to more freedom.
Laws tend to restrict citizens, if only — we’re told — for our own good. The ever-growing “do not” list now includes smoking in your own private business (unless, for now, it happens to be a bar or restaurant), not wearing a motorcycle helmet, failing to buckle your seat belt, playing dodgeball or tag on certain playgrounds, gambling on the Internet, refusing to buy health insurance (if you live in Massachusetts) or, in other areas, serving food cooked with trans fat.
So imagine a law that not only gives the public more individual freedom but, six years after implementation, seems to have contributed to a safer society.
According to a Detroit Free Press story published Sunday, Michigan now has more than 155,000 residents (about one in 65) legally licensed to carry a loaded firearm. That’s a six-fold increase since the state’s concealed carry law took effect. Most of us remember how nanny-state supporters objected to the law, assuring us that giving people more freedom to exercise their Second Amendment rights would “obviously” produce a flood of violence. Hundreds more people, they predicted, would die in shootouts on highways, city streets and businesses.
Instead, the opposite occurred. As permits have gone up, shootings have gone down and so has violent crime. In fact, the FBI reported Tuesday that violent crime in Detroit fell a surprising 12 percent in the first sixth months of 2007. This came despite a terrible economy that caused one university criminologist to anticipate a crime increase.
While it is not scientific to assign a cause-and-effect relationship to this phenomenon, similar results have been reported for years in most of the approximately 40 other states that have less restrictive concealed-carry firearm permits. On New Year’s Eve in Indianapolis, a shopper with a firearm stopped a supermarket armed robbery in progress and detained the suspect for police, without needing to fire a single shot. It was just another example of how more law-abiding citizens are protecting themselves and others.
The current data should be considered by Michigan lawmakers. They have a chance to pass House Bill 5162 that could give state teachers who try and who pass background checks and CCW permit training the option to legally protect their classes with a concealed firearm. The exasperated protests that students would be less safe if schools dropped their “gun-free zones” is identical to the claims we heard six years ago, claims discredited by experience.
It’s time to acknowledge that society is more free — and more safe — when criminals are not the only private citizens who might be carrying a firearm.
(SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
the world coming too"
NRA LIFE MEMBER
U.S. ARMY FT.SILL, OKLA.
M.C.R.G.O. is an excellent group that all gun owners from Michigan should join.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
I edited the thread title and properly quoted the editorial for copyright purposes and so we don't get in trouble.
Great editorial on some facts that should take some of the wind out of the opposing viewpoints. I just added a link to the MCRGO since we didn't already have one....
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
I am a FORMER member of MCRGO. There is a very good reason for being a FORMER member, and likely I will never be a member of that organization again. I chose to leave MCRGO, because they quit being a grass roots organization, and turned into a tyrannical organization, where one person ran the whole show, kicking board members out of the organization, violating state laws, getting the organization involved in civil lawsuits, and incurring tens of thousands of dollars in fines for contempt of court. While that was going on, membership declined by close to 50 %, and I doubt that it has increased that much since then. The most notable success they have had since that time is in taking credit for the accomplishments of other organizations and individuals. I disagree with the sentiment that all Michigan gun owners should be members of MCRGO. There are better gun rights groups in the state, that don't have a corrupt union behind the scenes, controlling the money and using the gun owners as patsies for their political machinations.
Quonset hut, thanks for the correction.just saw it on their website and thought
it might be interesting.didnt know it was from a diffrent newspaper.thanks again.
thanks bumper for the editing,wasnt my intention to cause any trouble.
one of many,didnt think it was too political. always read some good articles.
anyway thanks again for bringing these issuses to my attention.
(SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
the world coming too"
NRA LIFE MEMBER
U.S. ARMY FT.SILL, OKLA.
MCRGO is a non-profit corporation with a Board of Directors (BOD). Activists who want to see their personal views become state wide policy would have to win a board seat, and then convince the majority of the board that their way is the best.
Some people who failed to do this tried other ways to gain or regain power and influence in the gun rights cause in Michigan. Some called up legislators during final negotiations on CPL reform and claimed their views spoke for MCRGO, when they had no authority or directive for that. Others started a group to "restore" MCRGO to what they thought it should be, this after a few months became a competing group that had splintered off from MCRGO. There have been at least three splinter groups, all founded by former MCRGO activists. Some of these people have been those who were expelled from MCRGO.
It is true that we are not as much a grass roots organization than in our early years. The message board, while helpful in many ways, had been a pain to police for quite a while, with nasty personal attacks on Board, Staff and others, and a few members touting the splinter groups. It was dropped early in 2004. We used to attend committee hearings in the Legislature in Lansing, protesting what was bad and touting our cause. Currently, MCRGO BOD members are chairs of the committees in both the Senate (Judiciary) and House (Outdoor Recreation) where gun bills are first heard. Anti-gun bills don't even get a hearing. While some bristle at his style, MCRGO Executive Director Chuck Perricone (Former Republican Speaker of the MI House), was able to convince increasing numbers of Democratic legislators that they could vote pro-gun and survive re-election. When the House went into Democratic control in 2006, MCRGO BOD member Joel Sheltrown (D) took over the Outdoor Recreation Chair from MCRGO BOD member Tom Casperson (R). Legislators come to us for advice on gun bills they wish to propose.
Reaching across the aisle led Perricone to form a relationship with a number of Trade Unions. The Michigan Regional Council of Carpenters and Millwrights (MRCC) first started advertising in the MCRGO magazine in November, 2002. Sometime after the 2003 BOD election, a former BOD member has asserted that the BOD considered appointing someone from the Carpenters to a board vacancy.
That BOD member objected to that on our members message board, and did some other things only known to other BOD members that led to their expulsion. Thinking that things must be somehow wrong, they filed suit in 2004 to obtain BOD minutes, e-mails, and financial records, going back over three years. They also requested the membership listing, including members' personal information, and the right to correspond with members. As a BOD member, they felt they had been denied access to this, which was their right as a BOD member. Soon after, that person also filed a suit claiming that MCRGO BOD members who were sitting legislators has used their powers of office to demean the filer. That suit was later dropped, but its damage was done, as two legislators resigned from the board, while another stayed. A defamation suit was also filed by that person against MCRGO.
A long legal battle commenced, and the judge sided with the former BOD member on the suit about providing information. Over 3,000 pages of documentation was provided, including every check written, bank statements, bank reconciliations, and documentation on activity with MCRGO's printer. Later, the judge forced both the printer and the CPA firm who compiled the books for the Federal 990 form to directly give documentation to the plaintiff. This particular judge was listed as one of "America's Worst Judges" in the 8/96 Readers Digest. Meanwhile, at least one of the splinter groups was waving around copies of the lawsuit against us at gun shows, and using the lawsuit's existence to bad-mouth us at gun clubs to try to stop MCRGO visits or functions. We lost members and money and when legal bills forced a choice between publishing the magazine or paying Chuck, the magazine went out.
After delivery of the documents, no questions about the financial detail ever came from the plantiff. No questions came from ANY of the stuff delivered, just accusations that there must be something more we were hiding. MCRGO endured civil contempt fines to shield our members' personal information from the plaintiff. Only when our Board Chair was threatened with jail was the membership list delivered to the Plaintiff. Payment of civil fines and court costs were so much we couldn't publish our magazine for over a year, losing many members. To offset this, we started publishing a weekly E-news to members and others. You can sign up for this free on our home page.
There was never a letter from the plaintiff to MCRGO's membership. We assume that is because the Plaintiff couldn't find anything to say, after they saw the books. Late in 2006, all remaining suits were dropped by the plaintiff in a way that they can never be refiled.
There were wild statements and accusations by supporters of the Plaintiff on some message boards, claiming that MCRGO were "crooks", and they couldn't wait to see Mr. Perricone do the "perp walk". All this was fanciful and totally unproven.
MRCC executive Doug Buckler was appointed to a BOD vacancy in 2004, elected in 2005 (defeating the Plaintiff, whose membership was restored for a time), elected Chair (President) by the board, and re-elected in 2007. After Doug joined the BOD, his boss at MRCC, Walter Mabry, was convicted in federal court for allegedly pressuring one contractor on his personal home to give him work for free. That case was appealed. There was no involvement by Buckler in the Mabry case.
The only payments to MCRGO by MRCC or any union has been at the standard rate for advertising in our magazine. Doug Buckler helped organize a few "Friends of MCRGO" fundraising dinners where some in the construction and other industries bought many tables for these events. The revenue and expenses in total for those dinners has been presented to those who have attended the MCRGO annual meetings.
The MRCC is a frequent advertiser on TV broadcasts of Detroit pro sports events. They possibly spend more in a few weeks on TV than the $5,000 yearly for the full page ad in our magazine.
It is possible that a few former members may have been treated badly along the way. Ironically, some of this may have happened when those now on the outs were in power, the procedures for expulsion didn't change. Some others have convinced themselves that they were victims, or have decided to believe one side of the story without talking to the other side. It pains me that some I thought were my friends didn't bother ask me what was going on, but believed a story that someone else wished to be true.
Some of the those who went elsewhere had done good service for our cause, and feel they are still doing it in their "grassroots" way. I've said hello to a few at events, and had dinner at Camp Perry with one. It is unfortunate that some at the splinter groups feel that one way for them to thrive is for MCRGO to be destroyed, so they can pick up the pieces for themselves.
In our last magazine, you find articles from the following elected officials:
Rep. Joel Sheltrown
Rep. Craig DeRoche, House Republican Leader
Rep. Daniel J. Acciavatti
Attorney General Mike Cox
Oakland County Sheriff Michael J. Bouchard
Rep. Brian Calley
Secretary of State Terry Lynn Land
An example article...
CPL in Oakland County
By Sheriff Michael J. Bouchard
At the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office we take great pride in delivering our services to the public in a timely and efficient manner. They are after all, our customer and our boss. The processing of concealed pistol applications (CPL) is no exception.
When the law changed in 2001, the influx of CPL applications increased by four times. With the state required necessary paperwork, fingerprinting and background checks, the process was not a quick one. Therefore, to help meet the demand of the applications and to offer better service, we added two new staff members. I am also proud to report that thanks to a dedicated and hard working staff, Oakland County has one of the quickest turn around times in the state with an average wait time of one month. The process we hoped to create would be timely, polite and seamless. To insure we were meeting those ends, I sent a letter to license holders asking for their feedback and thoughts to make the system better. I am happy to say, the feedback was overwhelmingly positive. That being said, we are always open to suggestions and new and improved ways of doing business so that the process is as timely and painless as possible. Please do not hesitate to call us with your feedback.
On another note we have found, as many of us suspected, the predictions of massive problems with the new law not to be reality. Men and women exercising their second amendment rights respect the rule of law and our constitution. It is the criminal that doesn’t respect either. I am pleased to work with you and your members on the important issues of the day and greatly appreciate your feedback and support.
Thank you Quonset Hut for the explanition.
It was on the tv news, and they said something about a leader or leaders were arrested for something federal. I can't remember the details though.