Safety of National Parks/Conceal Carry

This is a discussion on Safety of National Parks/Conceal Carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If mods don't think this is the right place for this, just let me know. There was a discussion in this thread: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ark-thing.html that pointed ...

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Thread: Safety of National Parks/Conceal Carry

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Safety of National Parks/Conceal Carry

    If mods don't think this is the right place for this, just let me know.

    There was a discussion in this thread: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ark-thing.html that pointed people to another discussion on a Yellowstone site regarding the political move to allow carry (and especially conceal carry) in National Parks.

    The overwhelming response in the anti-gun camp was "you don't need guns" (and I hope I don't!) and that National Parks were safe. That started me thinking and compiling information and articles on the National Parks and National Park Service. I have made a very rough start. What I would ask is for people to respond with stories of violence and crime (I'm leaving the wildlife element out entirely) in National Parks, or to contribute statistics or web pages that would be informational on this subject. Here are my notes (and they're just notes for now -- my ultimate goal will be a well written document).

    This is as good a resource as any (and maybe I will tap others)... but please jump in with any info you might have!

    ----
    Murders in National Parks:


    Park Ranger Steve Makuakane-Jarrell Murdered Dec 12, 1999 - Honokohau National Park

    Julianne "Julie" Williams and her hiking companion, Laura "Lollie" Winans, Murdered June 1996 - Shenandoah National Park

    Ranger Kris Eggle, Murdered August 9, 2002 Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument - Suspected Drug Cartel Killing

    Carole Sund, 42; her daughter, Juli, 15; and their friend Silvina Pelosso, 16 - Murdered February 1999, Yosemite National Park

    Nature Guide Joie Armstrong, Murdered July 1999

    Pregnant Mother Jessie Davis, Murdered June 2007 - Body found in Cuyahoga Valley National Park

    Yu-Shung Lin and Yuki Yoshida Murder-Suicide, Jan 15th, 2006 - Glen Canyon National Recreation Area

    In 1989 there were 18 homocides in National Parks

    Ranger Robert L. McGhee, Murdered 1989, Gulf Islands National Park

    Mark Creasy 48 years old, Strangled to death May 2005 on Dangerfield Island

    Joie Armstrong, Murdered July 21st 1999 Yosemite National Park


    Total Reported "Part 1" Crimes By the National Park Service in 2006: 1010
    Part 1 crimes is a standard law enforcement category that includes homicide, rape, robbery, aggravated assaults, stolen automobiles, burglary, and larceny. (Source: National Park Service)

    9 Homicides in National Parks in 2006

    I know there's a LOT more, but it's almost like someone doesn't want that info released. An interesting thing I noticed is that in news reports of murders in National Parks, the name of the national park is frequently NOT mentioned. It's only listed as "a nearby national park" or "a national park".



    More Information needed on these National park incidents:

    Recently, rangers shot two men to death in separate armed battles at Lake Mead National Recreational Area near Las Vegas. A ranger was injured in a fall over a cliff last year when he scuffled with a man he sought to question about an automobile theft. The assailant, who also fell, was killed in the incident at Canyon de Chelly National Monument in Arizona.

    A large drug smuggling operation was uncovered last year in Big Bend National Park in Texas. A few months ago, rangers discovered a laboratory for methamphetamine, an illegal drug, in Joshua Tree National Park in California. Since January, rangers and drug agents have seized more than $500 million in narcotics from national parks.

    Parks officials also warn that bands of thieves believe campgrounds are easy marks. Officials say thieves lurk in the background at camp sites, watching for people who leave valuables unguarded.

    Mount Rainier National Park. In 1978 a double rape and armed robbery occurred on Rampart Ridge which led to an extensive manhunt both inside and outside the park. The perpetrator, a soldier from Fort Lewis, surrendered to authorities outside the park. In 1981 an armed robbery occurred at the National Park Inn. In 1987 park rangers and FBI agents carried out a joint investigation of a homicide after a body was discovered on the east side of the park. The victim had been shot in the back of the head. The unsolved murder case was thought to have been drug-related.

    Two homicides in Lake Mead in 2006

    1 Ranger to 100,000 visitors on average. Far less than ANY urban community anywhere in the US.

    National Park Service is the only land management agency that refuses to track violence directed against its biologists, naturalists and non-commissioned rangers.

    Devil's Postpile National Monument in California all the patrol rangers have been removed from the park. "There is no law enforcement presence in the park, and no agreements in place with neighboring law enforcement agencies. This is a complete violation of NPS policy and public trust, yet it has gone unchecked," according to the U.S. Park Rangers Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police. A truly criminal safe zone!

    National Park Service is dependant on keeping the image of National Parks "Safe," despite numbers to the contrary. Hence no collection of violent crime data by National Park Service in National Parks.

    ---
    Articles about Crime in National Parks:
    Crime rates tick up across national parks | csmonitor.com
    Our National Parks – Crime's New Frontier
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/us...ge&oref=slogin
    The Seattle Times: Local News: Crime slowly creeps into parks, forests
    Our National Parks Student Journalism Project
    Tucson Weekly : Currents : Ranger Danger
    The Most Dangerous National Parks (5/15/03) -- www.GovernmentExecutive.com
    USATODAY.com - U.S., Canadian officials bust daring drug-smuggling ring
    U.S. Rangers, Park Police Sustain Record Levels of Violence
    NPCA | Drug War Spreads to America’s National Parks
    News from DEA, Congressional testimony, 04/15/03
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

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  3. #2
    Member Array jarhead45's Avatar
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    Nice work!!! Keep up the good work.
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    VIP Member Array MNBurl's Avatar
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    Nice job and keep up the good work.
    MNBurl

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    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Another fact

    Law enforcement officers in the National Park Service are 12 times more likely to be killed or injured as a result of an assault than FBI agents – a rate triple that of the next worst federal agency," --Randall Kendrick, executive director for the U.S. Park Rangers Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police.

    That makes being a National Park Service Officer the most dangerous federal law enforcement job. Shocking...
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

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    Found this link, don'remember where

    I don't remember where I got this link, but I did bookmark it to read more later.

    National Park Service - Crime Abounds

    This stuff is claimed to come from the NPS' own reports.
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.

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  7. #6
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodstock View Post
    I don't remember where I got this link, but I did bookmark it to read more later.

    National Park Service - Crime Abounds

    This stuff is claimed to come from the NPS' own reports.
    This is exactly the sort of information I'm looking for! Thanks!!
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

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    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    Of 274 million visitors to national parks last year, there were 13 murders, 44 rapes, nine armed robberies, 60 aggravated assaults, 270 burglaries and 100 vehicle thefts, according to Park Service records
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    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
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    Wow, great stuff!

    All that should have been sent along with the proposal to allow CHL.
    "...trying to get a long gun into play while someone is all over you like a monkey eating a cupcake is not very conducive to good survival techniques." ~Bark'n

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array MNBurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPR View Post
    Law enforcement officers in the National Park Service are 12 times more likely to be killed or injured as a result of an assault than FBI agents – a rate triple that of the next worst federal agency," --Randall Kendrick, executive director for the U.S. Park Rangers Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police.

    That makes being a National Park Service Officer the most dangerous federal law enforcement job. Shocking...
    Does not surprise me. They work alone without a lot of help around (in a large park) so bound to be more dangerous than a sit behind the desk of the FBI most of the day.
    MNBurl

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  11. #10
    Senior Member Array Sky Pilot's Avatar
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    Excellent investigative work, all!
    Thank you for this!
    I knew the bad guys considered parks a "Condition White Zone" and major soft target ... but I hadn't the numbers to corroborate until now!
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  12. #11
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument

    Number one on the "Most Dangerous National Parks" list is Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument.

    The number of murders in the post above is deceptively low as MANY bodies are recovered from Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument each year. Many due to exposure, but almost all occuring during the commission of a crime (drug or people smuggling). But unless it's obviously a "murder" it doesn't make the list.

    60,000 to 80,000 pounds of marijuana were seized in Organ Pipe last year. An estimated 1,000 illegal immigrants can pass through Organ Pipe in a single day.

    Organ Pipe and Saguaro were referred to in the Fraternal Order of Police report on Most Dangerous national parks as "home to body dumping, smuggling and poaching."

    While most of the danger in Saguaro is faced by park rangers themselves, [Ranger Karen] Bradford says visitors should realize that a natural preserve so close to Tucson isn't going to be Disneyland. "Bad people come into the park, just like in the city."

    Many of the people who oppose Conceal Carry (or even Open Carry) in National Parks proclaim that to do so will make it a place where they won't feel safe to take their families and they will lose their Parks. Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument is apparently lost.

    How do we "take it back?" The short answer is not Law Enforcement. By their own admission, even a doubling of budgets would only be a start to resolving the problem. Taking it back means USING it. The same way we took back a lot of our streets, through neighborhood watch programs and making gardens and playgrounds in vacant lots. But you can rest assured, if I cannot defend myself, I would refuse to even try.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

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    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    Good info.
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    Member Array libertarian5's Avatar
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    I've been visiting Organ Pipe since I was a small child. My dad's ashes are spread there, and my mom wants hers put there as well. I still go once a year or so and hike a bit. The trails are trashed from all the water bottles and stuff left by folks hiking through. IMO, this will continue as long as we have social security cards that can be made on a home printer and employers who don't care as long as they can pay low wages.

    I've run into groups of aliens a few times - they usually lay low during the days and hike at night when helicopters can't find them. The place is crawling with law enforcement - Border Patrol, Park Service Lawmen, military choppers, and state police. It's not enough.

    It would be great if the park service rules were re-written to match the forest service policy of allowing CCW holders to carry on the land they administer.

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    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    I wrote yesterday to the Public Employeers for Environmental Responsibility. One of the groups who has been tracking violent offenses and danger within our national parks. I was hoping to get a "we support the opening of the ban on legal weapons in National Parks"... They're at Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility: Homepage

    I will not reveal who it was that replied to me, but here was their reply -- remember this is a group whose motto is "Protecting employees who protect our environment":

    While I personally agree with you, PEER does not typically take organizational positions on an issue unless it is in direct service of employees on whose behalf we are working.

    I'm fine with that. It was a neutral response. I would like to reply and ask, respectfully, whether they have considered this from the perspective of "safety in the parks" issue. To do so, I would like to be able to cite some facts on where Conceal Carry was able to reduce crime in a fairly specific and well documented way.

    help anyone?
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

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    Member Array Cloudpeak's Avatar
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    You've probably seen this site but, in case you haven't:

    The Morning Report for Friday, January 18, 2008

    Cloudpeak

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