Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal

This is a discussion on Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yikes! If I'm in such a gunfight I need to use my second reload. I'm backing out fast shooting (if necessary). My second mag is ...

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Thread: Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal

  1. #16
    Member Array AlongcameJones's Avatar
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    Yikes! If I'm in such a gunfight I need to use my second reload. I'm backing out fast shooting (if necessary). My second mag is my retreat magazine!!!!

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  3. #17
    Member Array PeterCartwright's Avatar
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    Good discussion thus far. Please don't misunderstand my initial post. I'm NOT arguing against a reload of any kind. I'm just reflecting, EVEN given the prejudice I share with many of you (viz. that my FIRST task is to get out of Dodge with family and self in one piece and not to play Rambo), the "average" self-defense situations seem very, very different than some of the mass shooting tragedies we've all read about.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I've come to the understanding that my pistol is only to bail me out of trouble, not save the world. It doesnt matter if its 9mm or 45, has 5 shots or 20. Most any quality handgun is going to do the trick just fine 99.9% of the time.
    In the unlikely event that I get caught up in a mall type of rampage, I'm going to be outclassed from square one if the BG has a long gun. Guess what, I'm outta there. My pistol is to save me and my family in a dire situation, not for heroics.
    A big ole +1.

    My pistol is solely for getting my family and then myself out of harms way. Either by neutralizing the BG(s) or just buying time and distance
    Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....

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  5. #19
    Member Array Dan M.'s Avatar
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    Ken Hammond, the off-duty Ogden PD officer was carrying his Kimber with no extra mags when he confronted the BG in the Trolley Square shootings. IIRC, he expressed concern to the SLC officers who responded about only having one mag. Salt Lake City police Chief Chris Burbank said," The heroic acts of [Hammond] going in and engaging a subject who was well armed and prepared to engage him, without having the benefits of a uniform, extra equipment or magazines for his firearms, is truly heroic. There is no question his quick actions saved the lives of numerous other people."

    Salt Lake Tribune - Trolley Square: The hero cop

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken45 View Post
    Now they tend to empty Glocks with only a single hit, if they are lucky. In one local shootout, the cop emptied a 21 round Glock and all he hit was a neighbor's TV :(
    Ken
    Urban legend. The average is still 25-30% hit ratio. This recognizes some don't hit the broadside of the proverbial barn, some get two mags on target.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    If there is ever a situation where I need more than 6 shots, or 12 like I normally carry, then I shouldn't be in the situation. I can't even imagine taking 12 shots in a crowded mall or church...You would almost be sure to hit somebody else. I'm a good shot, so, let's say I can hit a BG 9 out of 10 times while he is moving, I am moving, he is returning fire, there are crowds around and adrenaline is pumping. That still leaves 1-2 bullets that miss the BG, and not counting chances of a bullet passing through the BG. So, conservatively, 2-3 shots will be unaccounted for. In a crowded mall, that is 2-3 too many. And as far as 9 out of 10...I think a Navy Seal or Marine Force Recon team would have a hard time putting up 9 out of 10 clean hits in those situations, I think the 25-30% hit ratio that Rob mentioned would be more accurate. So, no, I don't carry an extra mag, I couldn't think of a reason to. I do carry a .38 revolver BUG, but I can't think of a time when I would ever need it. Maybe if I got disarmed or was forced to put my pistol down due to a BG taking my wife hostage or something like that. Pretty far fetched. If you are worried about your mag jamming or your pistol malfunctioning, I would say you need to buy a different pistol or some new mags. I have put 3000+ rounds through my XD9 and I have never had a FTF, FTE, or any other kind of problem. I have to have a friend load the magazine randomly with snap caps to even practice failure issues. I would have to say that the guys that carry 2-3 guns and 3+ spare mags are either LEO, former LEO or 'Sheepdogs' who want to be heroes in a situation that is probably beyond their capabilities. My carry is to protect me, my family, and if I can stop a BG from killing or raping somebody I will. But, the situation would have to be very, very dire for me to engage several BG's with body armor and rifles. That's called suicide.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  8. #22
    Member Array MnemonicMonkey's Avatar
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    I weighed both sides of this dilemma when I made my purchase. While I would certainly feel more comfortable taking a 25 yd shot on a BG with a rifle using a 5" 1911, I'm a scrappy guy and would have a harder time concealing that than my 9mm M&P compact. I certainly wouldn't want to go face to face, but given a situation where my wife is safe, and I have an opportunity to flank and close, I'm going to do what I reasonably can to save lives.

    Like Ken45 said, the likelihood of being involved in a "national news" situation is nearly nil. However, Jean Assam proved that even the little 9mm and some good training can git-r-done in a frontal assault. Even in the Omaha shooting, the guy by the elevator (have we heard more from him?/was he real?) could have used the numerous clothes racks to flank and close had he not been disarmed.

    Once again, I hate going on campus with an empty holster.
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  9. #23
    Member Array jongle's Avatar
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    The following is with the greatest of respect, and is without any intent to antagonize, but IMHO, anyone who tries to deal with a suicidal nut, armed with a semi (or fully) automatic rifle, using a pistol in a crowded environment needs to sit down and really think about what happens IF he/she survives. There's a time to stand and defend onesself, and there's a time to beat feet.

    I read somewhere that a pistol is what you use to buy time to get a rifle.

    I suspect that the odds of successfully confronting the above hypothetical whackhead and surviving are low, unless you can nail him/her before being noticed with a head shot. The military can walk away from "collateral damage"; we can't.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    It is true that I will probably never need my BUG or extra mags or even ever have to use my primary carry. But then I probably will never need to use my fire extinguishers in my house either, but I still keep 2 in the house and 2 in the shop. I don't need any of them unless everything goes bellyup then I need badly. I would much rather not need and have then need and don't have.

    As to a mall situation, thinking about this almost makes me want to buy a PLR 16 on a sling and carry 2 extra 30 round mags under a raincoat. But reality says my 5in. 1911 and the two extra mags plus BUG is enough, since I would plan on makeing myself scarce and not be a Hero. Call me a coward if you want but I would rather be a live coward then a dead Hero.

  11. #25
    Member Array JeffLrrp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken45 View Post
    I look at it statistically. I figure there is maybe a 1 in 100 chance that I'll ever need to fire my gun in self defense. If so, there is a 1 in 100 chance that I'd need a reload. (My numbers can be argued, but the principle is valid, IMO.)

    So that makes it about 1 in 10,000 that I'd need a reload. Even with a reload, there still is a chance that a single person with a handgun won't be enough either, I might need a military battalion, or at least a platoon.

    The other thing I will say is that I think excess availability of ammo leads to "pray and spray" shooting. When cops carried revolvers, they typically used only 3 or 4 rounds in a shootout. Now they tend to empty Glocks with only a single hit, if they are lucky. In one local shootout, the cop emptied a 21 round Glock and all he hit was a neighbor's TV :(

    Myself, I'm comfortable with 9 rounds of .45 (or 5 if I'm carrying the revolver). Now if i HAD to go out during a civil disturbance, yes, I'd carry more.

    Just my $.02

    Ken
    Not that I agree with all of your reasoning (I still carry an extra mag with my SA XD) but I wouldnt feel outclassed with a 5 shot .357 or .38 either (with a speedloader of course)
    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . .
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    For 10yrs, I carried a S&W 442 Airweight .38spl, with a couple of Bianchi strips of 5rd reloads. A couple years back, I switched to a high-capacity 9mm semi-auto.

    To some degree, it's due to having the higher capacity and ease of reload, based on the increased risk factors present in many modern crimes. I would not, however, have made the switch had I not found a suitably-reliable pistol that fit.

    I'm a lefty, with fairly small hands, with an old injury/problem with my strong hand that gets in the way of being able to manipulate the controls of half the pistols out there, given how small and tight the controls are (notably SIG, Glock).

    In the couple of decades that I've been shooting pistols, I have only found two guns, ever, that have met all of my criteria for usability and reliability. I'm carrying one now: CZ P-01 9mm semi-auto. Had I not found one that I could live with on a daily basis, I would not have switched, despite the attractions.

    Given the platform I carry, I now don't adjust much when heading to one venue or the other. At worst, I add the backup. But it's the primary plus two magazine reloads, as daily carry. For me, it's insurance. I'll never know when the defensive ability will be needed, but I will be really happy to have it should the need arise.
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  13. #27
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    My current "everyday carry" is a lowly ol Kel-Tec P-3at. No extra mag, just the gun fully loaded, including 1 in the pipe. And yes I feel just fine with it. Just over a year ago, I only carried a 2" folding knife, so I am far better equipped today. When I go into the bigger cities, then I up my carry piece, and take spare mags. I think some of you folks carry more ammo than we have people in my town.

    Don't any of you get me wrong, I am not judging or questioning what you carry.

    The only time I feel "under-gunned" is when I hear that "WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT NOISE" at night in the house, then, I wish I had my XD 9-mm on the head-board.


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  14. #28
    kpw
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    I carry what makes ME feel comfortable. I started carrying years ago when I lived in a very crappy part of town. I wasn't so much worried about the individual as the gangs. As my LEO buddy told me "They all have guns!" I'll stick the snubby in my coat pocket for a quick trip like most do. On Thursday morning, I missed a hold up at my daily morning stop before work by about 15 minutes. Two of them came in storm trooper style and pistol whipped the poor girl working. If I had been there, I'd prefer my Glock on me than the .38 or .32 I usually take to work.

  15. #29
    Member Array ken45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    It's nice to shoot the numbers around the internet on forums like this but the one statistic that I never see is that there is a whole heap of dead folks out there who never thought it could happen to them and guess what?

    If all those people keep beating the odds, what makes you think you won't?
    The vast majority of them didn't have a gun at all, right? How many actual situations can you cite where a citizen in a self defense situation ran out of ammo and needed more? If you can't take care of the situation in 5,6, or 9 shots, you are not practicing (on target) gun control and getting out of Dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I find only one flaw with your argument Ken... what are the odds you will have a malfunction and need another mag? Thats what a reload is for in most cases, not more ammo. I also figure if I'm going to carry a gun, an extra mag isnt a big deal to carry too.
    I feel that I have a reliable gun and magazine. There is a very low probability that I will need to actually fire it for defense in my lifetime. The odds of that happening PLUS having a magazine failure is extremely low.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlongcameJones View Post
    Yikes! If I'm in such a gunfight I need to use my second reload. I'm backing out fast shooting (if necessary). My second mag is my retreat magazine!!!!
    I figured that's what the first magazine is for. I don't really see getting involved in a pitched gun battle. I'm not an LEO. It's not my task to pursue the criminal. My task is to discourage him from continuing to attack me or my family. A few rounds should be able to accomplish that. I'm not carrying a bank payroll or a bunch of drugs.

    As Kleck has said, the vast majority of times that a firearm is used for self defense, no shots are fired. Most criminals want easy pickings, and will prefer to live for another day and go elsewhere.

    Now if I HAD to go into certain cities and neighborhoods, I'd either avoid them, or yes, I'd carry more.

    Ken

  16. #30
    kpw
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken45 View Post
    The vast majority of them didn't have a gun at all, right? How many actual situations can you cite where a citizen in a self defense situation ran out of ammo and needed more? If you can't take care of the situation in 5,6, or 9 shots, you are not practicing (on target) gun control and getting out of Dodge.



    I feel that I have a reliable gun and magazine. There is a very low probability that I will need to actually fire it for defense in my lifetime. The odds of that happening PLUS having a magazine failure is extremely low.



    I figured that's what the first magazine is for. I don't really see getting involved in a pitched gun battle. I'm not an LEO. It's not my task to pursue the criminal. My task is to discourage him from continuing to attack me or my family. A few rounds should be able to accomplish that. I'm not carrying a bank payroll or a bunch of drugs.

    As Kleck has said, the vast majority of times that a firearm is used for self defense, no shots are fired. Most criminals want easy pickings, and will prefer to live for another day and go elsewhere.

    Now if I HAD to go into certain cities and neighborhoods, I'd either avoid them, or yes, I'd carry more.

    Ken
    I've seen a few videos of shootouts where people shot their guns dry. I know people are standing there in their favorite range stance, carefully picking their target when bullets are coming at them from 10 feet away. There are also times when you can't retreat because of your location and/or opportunity. You'll have to fight through it. If what you have in your gun is good enough for you, that's cool. I like to better my chances, if even slightly. The statistics show that we are somewhat unlikely to get in a gun fight. I carry a reload and most often a BUG for the same reason you carry your pistol. In the unlikely event that I'll need it (again!). Paranoid? I don't know, don't care either. I'm comfortable with it. Odds are that I probably won't need any of it. Odds are that I probably won't hit the big lotto but I still throw a buck or two at it on occasion. I'm probably much more likely to get into a gun fight that cash in that big ticket but there is always a chance that I'll beat the odds... for better or worse.

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