Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal
This is a discussion on Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BerneyG
I still think that the people that are carrying 30+ rounds and 2-3 guns are going to eventually put themselves in ...
January 20th, 2008 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by BerneyG
So by carrying one reload I'm automatically considered a 30+ round Rambo Hero because I chose a G17 that I paid only $100 for over a $500 G19 (which would also put you over magical 30 round "Rambo Limit" anyway if you keep one in the pipe)? You're making a huge leap in assumption that because: 1) I'm more comfortable carrying two reloads just in case I drop one in the shuffle of action after a failure of some kind. After dropping a magazine during failure/reloading drills a few times, I quickly got to feeling that maybe a second chance for a new magazine without dropping to my knees and crawling around for the dropped magazine is a good thing, 2) I have a double-mag carrier because I want to counter-weight my gun more effectively, 3) the double-mag carrier cost just as much as a single so I figured "Why not?", and 4) because I'm trying to become a cop so I might as well get used to the weight. In absolutely no way, shape, or form does this mean that I'm "looking for a hero situation" to get myself into.
I carry one more reload than you do. Why do you even care? You don't have to carry a second reload if you don't want to. You think it's a waste, but I got a good deal on the double-mag carrier and I like it! Again, why do you even care?
Furthermore, you don't know me or anyone else on this board for the most part. Making blanket statements that we're basically untrained idiots unprepared for the realities of violent encounters waiting to be PRSed by the first bad situation coming our way is more than a bit insulting, especially based upon the random posts on a public forum. Yeah, we don't follow your "one-reload is more than enough" example or maybe even the examples of all the high-speed/low-drag types you might now but that does not make us underprepared or hiding under a blanket of false security based upon carrying more ready ammunition than you're personally comfortable with.
January 20th, 2008 01:11 AM
January 20th, 2008 01:25 AM
I didn't mean to say 30+ was an automatic qualifier for 'Rambo Limit'. I didn't even mean to insult you or anyone else on this post. As far as the why do I care part, well that's simple. A person with a concealed permit involved in a shooting is always scrutinized and recieves more media attention that just about anything else. I actually don't care if you want to carry 30 extra mags...that's up to you. I perhaps was unclear. I made a blanket statement, which I should not have done. I was actually responding to specific posts, so I should have been more specific rather than resorting to a blanket statement. I took the lazy way out, and it was easier. The specific posts I was referring to were. 1. needing over 15 shots to take out several attackers using body armor. 2. 5 armed aggressors coming at me, etc.
Anyway, I carry 13 in primary, 6 in BUG. Occasionally, I carry a spare mag...that also puts me in the 30+ "rambo limit". I don't care anything about how much equipment you carry, or weight, or how many bullets you have. If you are involved in a shooting and the jury hears you had 73 rounds on you at the time, that might me hard for an 'average joe' to comprehend, considering he has probably never shot 73 rounds. But, that's beside the point and off topic.
The post was normal vs abnormal self defense. The OP had seen, as I have seen, recently, that people on this forum have been talking about preparing for worst case scenarios...SHTF moments...a lot more than previously and all I am saying is, that's not why I carry.
If your primary guidelines in carry options are what will I need if I am involved in a worst case scenario, I would recommend purchasing a trench coat, and a automatic or SA rifle. Anything other than that, with the goal of being ready for anything that happens, I believe you are setting yourself up for failure. That was the only point I was trying to make. Sorry if it came off as offensive.
BTW, welcome to the forum.
January 20th, 2008 02:43 AM
Unless you have a rather troubled lifestyle, YOU do not get to choose the time, place or number of attackers trying to kill you.
A gunfight will not be what you expect, it will be what it is.
You can talk about "statistics" that most citizens never need more than 3 shots in a gunfight. You can tell me your pistol will perform flawlessly until the sun goes nova, so who needs an extra magazine...
I've had the displeasure of having a dozen attackers trying to kill me... THAT was indeed an "abnormal" day.
You ever practice at speed and fumble a magazine?
Ever accidentally eject a magazine?
I fully expect that my first, and any subsequent gunfight will be an extremely ABNORMAL event, and I plan to be as well equipped, and practiced as I can be.
January 20th, 2008 06:26 AM
January 20th, 2008 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by QKShooter
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
January 20th, 2008 08:35 AM
QK---I should clarify my-self, yes I am one that carries a P-3at and no spare mag, and I do feel fine with it. It is the only thing I can imagine that I could carry all day with my work environment. If you seen what I do all day, you would understand. IF, if I could carry my PF- 9 or XD-9 (both have spare mags with them) everyday at work, by all means I would!! The gun is one of my tools, (and my best one) my weapon is between my ears, and I try to use it well.
I am not prepared for "all possibilities" , but I am prepared the best I possibly can.
An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.
January 20th, 2008 09:14 AM
January 20th, 2008 09:36 AM
My wife's company had their "winter party" last night. As we were leaving and headed back to the truck, my wife put her arm around my waist and felt the G22 on my hip. (IWB) She said "You've had that on the whole time?" Then she jokingly asked if I was "expecting" a disgruntled employee to show up and start shooting. I told her that I EXPECTED exactly what happened...nothing. However, I was PREPARED for a different scenario. She smiled and gave me a big hug!
Glock 22, NS
Glock 20, NS
Ruger MkIII bull-barrel
Originally Posted by Dal1Celt
January 20th, 2008 10:26 AM
Honestly, I'm just happy to see so many people taking on the responsibillity of carrying. Doesn't matter to me what they carry. I think if we had a much larger percentage of the population carrying nothing but a 5 shot snubby, we might see a huge reduction in violent crime. That's pretty much what I'm limited to at work but the rest of the time, I just like a little extra insurance against the Murphy's in life.
January 20th, 2008 12:59 PM
The point that I really want to STRESS is Carry Something and all the time if possible.
And if the P-3AT is all that you're able to carry then please do carry a spare magazine. Put them together like Mutt & Jeff.
That would be especially applicable with a semiautomatic of that size.
My opinion is that if carry a firearm then you are on my side of the fence and I'm happy to have you on my side of the fence. Carry what you can when you can.
Originally Posted by SleepingZ
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
January 20th, 2008 01:50 PM
How many rounds do I normally carry? In most instances, one reload.
If I can take the time and effort to conceal and carry a weapon, I feel I can do the same with a spare magazine - which is much easier to conceal and carry. In fact, an additional magazine is very easy to conceal and carry and much less "noticeable".
I hope I never have to use either my weapon or my reload. But I would hate to be caught without either one in the unlikely event it is needed.
It's just another little clause I've added to my "personal" insurance policy. In all probablility I'll never need it, but "why not" when it's so easy to do?
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that . . . it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. . . ." Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Justice John Cartwright (June 5, 1824)
January 20th, 2008 04:17 PM
Murphy's law being what it is, just be prepared for the worse and hope for the best. As to spare magazines. I recounted this experiense before but it bears repeating. I was target shooting and practicing reloads. I had 3 full magazines that I normaly rotate. This instance I emptied the first mag dropped it and inserted next mag, fired one round and had a bad jam and had to strip mag, incerted last mag and as it slid home and locked the bullets spurted out of ejection port. Both of these mags had been working fine. After examaning the mags, one had spread feed lips and the other had split in the back/ Had I been defending myself I probably would have been dead. No one can know when you may need more mags or ammo or a BUG. Just be prepared.
January 20th, 2008 04:29 PM
where to draw the line?
Not to pick on Matiki, just using his common line of thought, OF WHICH I MOSTLY AGREE WITH. I think with most things like this, you have to draw the line somewhere however. In a generic sense, people always say that safety is the most important thing. Well not always literally. What people really mean is "safety is the most important thing, as long as there is not a huge inconvenience to go along with it."
Originally Posted by matiki
For example, if saving lives was the most important thing, they would make cars illegal, since so many people die in crashes. But most people are ok with that risk, because driving their own car outweighs the small risk of death in the car.
Ok back from the tangent now. Apply this to carrying a gun and using the common phrase "I'd rather have it and not need it." Where do you draw the line? Sure you'd rather have that AR15 with 5 mags, and BUGs with ammo and a helmet and a vest etc. That isn't practical in your daily routine. And somewhere between not carrying and being ready for war is reality.
I think the comment on the 1 in 100 chance of needing the gun, then another 1 in 100 chance in those cases of having a malfunction is realistic and makes sense to me. How many BUGs or spare mags are enough to cover the endless scenarios? I guess I would need to see more information on how common mag failures are with the gun I plan on carrying.
I'm probably not stating my point very well. I think being prepared like a boyscout is ideal, but not always practical. It's easy to side with being over-prepared but at some point you will be so inconvenienced with your preparations for the what ifs, you'll have to wonder if it's all worth it. So somewhere in there you do what you're comfortable with and make a compromise. I'm really still trying to decide if carrying an extra mag is worth it or not. Hmmm. After all this, I'll probably carry one :)
January 20th, 2008 04:51 PM
Obviously you can "best guess" where matiki drew his personal line just based on his comment.
He carries his full size primary & spare mags and a BUG with spare mags.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
January 20th, 2008 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by kpw
Although I feel that ONE gun and no extra ammo is safe and adequate in MY ENVIRONMENT, I'm certainly not against someone else carrying more if they want to.
To be honest, around here, I'm more worried about being hurt with a deer collision than I am worried about encountering a thug. :)
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