Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal - Page 4

Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal

This is a discussion on Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BerneyG I still think that the people that are carrying 30+ rounds and 2-3 guns are going to eventually put themselves in ...

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Thread: Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerneyG View Post
    I still think that the people that are carrying 30+ rounds and 2-3 guns are going to eventually put themselves in the hero situation they are preparing for and find that they are outclassed, outgunned, and probably dead. The mentality of multiple attackers, for instance dunn's post with a woman with 5 BG's advancing on her...I don't care how many reloads you have. In that case 5 shots is just as good as 100. Only exception being an automatic. That's absurd to plan on such things. It's not going to happen, and if it does, no preparation, training, carry options on your part is going to save you. It will come down to luck. And you having a gun in as bad a situation as you are painting, will probably only ensure you end up dead instead of just losing your wallet. This isn't a video game. Grow up. Nobody here, nobody in SWAT, nobody in the Navy Seals, nobody in Recon, and nobody in LEO should ever engange multiple targets in a crowded area where the targets are aided by superior weaponry and armor. Some of you are saying you are preparing for the absolute worst. Well, I think the 'preparation' as you call it, is 1. inadequate, and 2. will probably end up giving you a false sense of security if a situation like that ever comes up.

    Sheepdog: "Well, I know there are 5 attackers wearing body armor with automatic rifles, but, what the heck, I have 3 extra magazines...That should even things out..."
    20 minutes later
    Coroner: "Hey, help me pick this guy up."

    And once again, This isn't a video game.
    A shot from concealment to end a BG's day...Absolutely, in a heart beat.
    Engaging multiple shooters in a crowded area(with any amount of rounds). Get real.
    Umm...yeah.
    So by carrying one reload I'm automatically considered a 30+ round Rambo Hero because I chose a G17 that I paid only $100 for over a $500 G19 (which would also put you over magical 30 round "Rambo Limit" anyway if you keep one in the pipe)? You're making a huge leap in assumption that because: 1) I'm more comfortable carrying two reloads just in case I drop one in the shuffle of action after a failure of some kind. After dropping a magazine during failure/reloading drills a few times, I quickly got to feeling that maybe a second chance for a new magazine without dropping to my knees and crawling around for the dropped magazine is a good thing, 2) I have a double-mag carrier because I want to counter-weight my gun more effectively, 3) the double-mag carrier cost just as much as a single so I figured "Why not?", and 4) because I'm trying to become a cop so I might as well get used to the weight. In absolutely no way, shape, or form does this mean that I'm "looking for a hero situation" to get myself into.
    I carry one more reload than you do. Why do you even care? You don't have to carry a second reload if you don't want to. You think it's a waste, but I got a good deal on the double-mag carrier and I like it! Again, why do you even care?
    Furthermore, you don't know me or anyone else on this board for the most part. Making blanket statements that we're basically untrained idiots unprepared for the realities of violent encounters waiting to be PRSed by the first bad situation coming our way is more than a bit insulting, especially based upon the random posts on a public forum. Yeah, we don't follow your "one-reload is more than enough" example or maybe even the examples of all the high-speed/low-drag types you might now but that does not make us underprepared or hiding under a blanket of false security based upon carrying more ready ammunition than you're personally comfortable with.


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    pyschophipps,
    I didn't mean to say 30+ was an automatic qualifier for 'Rambo Limit'. I didn't even mean to insult you or anyone else on this post. As far as the why do I care part, well that's simple. A person with a concealed permit involved in a shooting is always scrutinized and recieves more media attention that just about anything else. I actually don't care if you want to carry 30 extra mags...that's up to you. I perhaps was unclear. I made a blanket statement, which I should not have done. I was actually responding to specific posts, so I should have been more specific rather than resorting to a blanket statement. I took the lazy way out, and it was easier. The specific posts I was referring to were. 1. needing over 15 shots to take out several attackers using body armor. 2. 5 armed aggressors coming at me, etc.

    Anyway, I carry 13 in primary, 6 in BUG. Occasionally, I carry a spare mag...that also puts me in the 30+ "rambo limit". I don't care anything about how much equipment you carry, or weight, or how many bullets you have. If you are involved in a shooting and the jury hears you had 73 rounds on you at the time, that might me hard for an 'average joe' to comprehend, considering he has probably never shot 73 rounds. But, that's beside the point and off topic.

    The post was normal vs abnormal self defense. The OP had seen, as I have seen, recently, that people on this forum have been talking about preparing for worst case scenarios...SHTF moments...a lot more than previously and all I am saying is, that's not why I carry.
    If your primary guidelines in carry options are what will I need if I am involved in a worst case scenario, I would recommend purchasing a trench coat, and a automatic or SA rifle. Anything other than that, with the goal of being ready for anything that happens, I believe you are setting yourself up for failure. That was the only point I was trying to make. Sorry if it came off as offensive.
    BTW, welcome to the forum.
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  3. #48
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    "Normal"? "Abnormal"?

    Unless you have a rather troubled lifestyle, YOU do not get to choose the time, place or number of attackers trying to kill you.

    A gunfight will not be what you expect, it will be what it is.

    You can talk about "statistics" that most citizens never need more than 3 shots in a gunfight. You can tell me your pistol will perform flawlessly until the sun goes nova, so who needs an extra magazine...

    I've had the displeasure of having a dozen attackers trying to kill me... THAT was indeed an "abnormal" day.

    You ever practice at speed and fumble a magazine?
    Ever accidentally eject a magazine?

    I fully expect that my first, and any subsequent gunfight will be an extremely ABNORMAL event, and I plan to be as well equipped, and practiced as I can be.


    --Travis--

  4. #49
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    I'm not sure that there is such a thing as a statistically normal or abnormal sudden and violent attack.
    I don't think that it's possible to base your decision on what to carry (or what not to carry) on Armed Citizen Success Stories.
    You would really need to factor in all of the people who are killed, seriously hurt and wounded every year as helpless victims of violent crime who were completely unarmed and then try to make a reasonable determination as to if having a firearm on their person (coupled with a modest amount of training) could have possibly saved them from a premature maiming, crippling, or extermination.
    They are the forever uncounted masses.

    I can only state my personal opinion that folks that cannot envision a scenario where they might need more than 5 rounds from a double action snub do not have much imagination.
    That is just my personal opinion.

    I'm not really sure how deep I want to dive into this thread topic since the bottom line is that after I'm done typing...everybody will still continue do whatever it is they think works best for themselves anyway.
    It should be enough to say that the "average" face of violent crime in the US has been changing for quite a few years now.
    Attacks by multiple sub-humans is obviously increasing.
    The gangs are growing. Criminal types are far less compassionate in general.
    They are far less likely to want to leave live witnesses.
    Total disregard for innocent human life is on the increase.
    Incidents where suicidal sick folks with a strong desire to want to take other people out with them are also obviously increasing.
    The criminal element is these days is more violent and "short fused" in general and more easily tripped off to react with extreme violence at the slightest provocation.
    Road Ragers are willing to take a baseball bat to your head over the slightest incident.
    The terror threat is still real and that has not even really blossomed yet.
    That threat is for sure not going to decrease in the future.
    Drug use is forever on the increase. Increased drug use (especially Crack) leads to increased violent crime. Drugged up attackers are much harder stop and shut down and that is a well known fact.
    Severely addicted people will attempt to kill you for their next high.
    Statistically they are much harder to stop. People on Meth are crazy!

    Statistically the country is changing rapidly and not for the better.
    So I'm not sure that average "number of bullets" statistics hold much water anymore since things are in such a state of constant flux. The overall trends are not good though.

    That all being said if a person carries a semi-auto then they should carry a spare magazine because the one thing that statistically never changes is that the magazine is always the weakest link in any semiautomatic handgun so having "too many" cartridges on your person has nothing to do with why you should carry an extra magazine.

    And for anybody that thinks that five shots in a snubbie will always be enough...I'm fine with whatever you think is fine for you...since the life you'll attempt to save will not be mine - it will be yours.
    I'm guilty & I carry one myself sometimes but, always with a speed loader.
    My suggestion would be that if you can't tolerate the added bulk of a speed loader then at least chuck 5 loose rounds into your pocket - 'cause ya never really do know what Lady Fate will have in store for your future and a SLOW "Five More" beats a "No More!" any old day of the week.

    We all have differing perceptions as to our own respective realities.
    We all live in different areas with different "real threat" and danger levels.
    Certainly if you work in a Pawn Shop in a totally crap area your real life daily self~defense needs might be totally different than if you worked someplace "safe" in a "nice" area. If there is such a place.

    I already was the victim of a violent stabbing attack when I was lots younger and skinnier.
    A firearm sure would have helped me out back then and so I've carried one every since I've been legally allowed to.
    Would five rounds have been enough way back then? I honestly couldn't say.
    I was "multiple attacked" by three so....Maybe. Possibly.
    Would the mere sight of a gun have scared them away and sent them running?
    Maybe. I just don't know. It's possible. I CAN honestly say that immediately before that incident happened I would have rather had ANYTHING than the nothing that I had with me at the time.
    Hey...gimme a snubbie...gimme a 17+1 Capacity Semi-Auto Give me a .22 RimFire or a single shot muzzle loading derringer.
    I would have loved having anything!

    These days I usually a Colt Combat Commander and at least one spare magazine and I sure don't feel like I'm over-gunned. Carry whatever floats your boat.

    Obviously I feel that some good, solid training is necessary along with some good firearm proficiency.
    Self~defense means different things to different people so if a person feels that the .380 P-3AT in the pocket with no spare mag is enough for them then who am I to say that they're wrong.
    Hopefully it will help keep them safe and I'll sure be happy if it does.
    I still believe that more is usually better than less.
    And I see some real true value in taking in some of the highly qualified self-defense training that is being offered these days.
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  5. #50
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I can only state my personal opinion that folks that cannot envision a scenario where they might need more than 5 rounds from a double action snub do not have much imagination.
    +1
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

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  6. #51
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    QK---I should clarify my-self, yes I am one that carries a P-3at and no spare mag, and I do feel fine with it. It is the only thing I can imagine that I could carry all day with my work environment. If you seen what I do all day, you would understand. IF, if I could carry my PF- 9 or XD-9 (both have spare mags with them) everyday at work, by all means I would!! The gun is one of my tools, (and my best one) my weapon is between my ears, and I try to use it well.

    I am not prepared for "all possibilities" , but I am prepared the best I possibly can.


    Z
    An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerneyG View Post
    pyschophipps,
    If your primary guidelines in carry options are what will I need if I am involved in a worst case scenario, I would recommend purchasing a trench coat, and a automatic or SA rifle. Anything other than that, with the goal of being ready for anything that happens, I believe you are setting yourself up for failure. That was the only point I was trying to make. Sorry if it came off as offensive.
    BTW, welcome to the forum.
    Agreed. It's all but impossible to be "ready for anything" short of packing the trunk of your car with emergency gear and parking it within arms reach at all times with the lid open. It's a fine balance between what you feel is enough for you and what the statistics say you will typically really need.
    My main point was that by being in a violent encounter at "X" moment, you've already beat the odds. What's one more statistical hosing amongst friends?

    I had a feeling that it was a misunderstanding born of the frustrations of Mall Ninjas making it hard for the rest of us, but I had to vent my spleen a bit, too.

    Thanks very much for the welcome, I appreciate it. Have a good one, yourself.

  8. #53
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Expectations...
    My wife's company had their "winter party" last night. As we were leaving and headed back to the truck, my wife put her arm around my waist and felt the G22 on my hip. (IWB) She said "You've had that on the whole time?" Then she jokingly asked if I was "expecting" a disgruntled employee to show up and start shooting. I told her that I EXPECTED exactly what happened...nothing. However, I was PREPARED for a different scenario. She smiled and gave me a big hug!
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  9. #54
    kpw
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    Honestly, I'm just happy to see so many people taking on the responsibillity of carrying. Doesn't matter to me what they carry. I think if we had a much larger percentage of the population carrying nothing but a 5 shot snubby, we might see a huge reduction in violent crime. That's pretty much what I'm limited to at work but the rest of the time, I just like a little extra insurance against the Murphy's in life.

  10. #55
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    The point that I really want to STRESS is Carry Something and all the time if possible.
    And if the P-3AT is all that you're able to carry then please do carry a spare magazine. Put them together like Mutt & Jeff.
    That would be especially applicable with a semiautomatic of that size.

    My opinion is that if carry a firearm then you are on my side of the fence and I'm happy to have you on my side of the fence. Carry what you can when you can.


    Quote Originally Posted by SleepingZ View Post
    QK---I should clarify my-self, yes I am one that carries a P-3at and no spare mag, and I do feel fine with it. It is the only thing I can imagine that I could carry all day with my work environment. If you seen what I do all day, you would understand. IF, if I could carry my PF- 9 or XD-9 (both have spare mags with them) everyday at work, by all means I would!! The gun is one of my tools, (and my best one) my weapon is between my ears, and I try to use it well.

    I am not prepared for "all possibilities" , but I am prepared the best I possibly can.


    Z
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  11. #56
    Member Array Tenring's Avatar
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    How many rounds do I normally carry? In most instances, one reload.

    If I can take the time and effort to conceal and carry a weapon, I feel I can do the same with a spare magazine - which is much easier to conceal and carry. In fact, an additional magazine is very easy to conceal and carry and much less "noticeable".

    I hope I never have to use either my weapon or my reload. But I would hate to be caught without either one in the unlikely event it is needed.

    It's just another little clause I've added to my "personal" insurance policy. In all probablility I'll never need it, but "why not" when it's so easy to do?
    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that . . . it is their right and duty to be at all times armed. . . ." Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Justice John Cartwright (June 5, 1824)

  12. #57
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    Murphy's law being what it is, just be prepared for the worse and hope for the best. As to spare magazines. I recounted this experiense before but it bears repeating. I was target shooting and practicing reloads. I had 3 full magazines that I normaly rotate. This instance I emptied the first mag dropped it and inserted next mag, fired one round and had a bad jam and had to strip mag, incerted last mag and as it slid home and locked the bullets spurted out of ejection port. Both of these mags had been working fine. After examaning the mags, one had spread feed lips and the other had split in the back/ Had I been defending myself I probably would have been dead. No one can know when you may need more mags or ammo or a BUG. Just be prepared.

  13. #58
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    where to draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    I'd rather have the extra ammo and not need it.

    I'd also rather have the extra barrel length and not need it.

    Further, I also would rather have the extra BUG and not need it.

    Even further, I also would rather have the extra BUG mags and not need them.

    I can't think of anything worse than needing 15 rounds and having 14, or any close approximation of that type of situation.
    Not to pick on Matiki, just using his common line of thought, OF WHICH I MOSTLY AGREE WITH. I think with most things like this, you have to draw the line somewhere however. In a generic sense, people always say that safety is the most important thing. Well not always literally. What people really mean is "safety is the most important thing, as long as there is not a huge inconvenience to go along with it."

    For example, if saving lives was the most important thing, they would make cars illegal, since so many people die in crashes. But most people are ok with that risk, because driving their own car outweighs the small risk of death in the car.

    Ok back from the tangent now. Apply this to carrying a gun and using the common phrase "I'd rather have it and not need it." Where do you draw the line? Sure you'd rather have that AR15 with 5 mags, and BUGs with ammo and a helmet and a vest etc. That isn't practical in your daily routine. And somewhere between not carrying and being ready for war is reality.

    I think the comment on the 1 in 100 chance of needing the gun, then another 1 in 100 chance in those cases of having a malfunction is realistic and makes sense to me. How many BUGs or spare mags are enough to cover the endless scenarios? I guess I would need to see more information on how common mag failures are with the gun I plan on carrying.

    I'm probably not stating my point very well. I think being prepared like a boyscout is ideal, but not always practical. It's easy to side with being over-prepared but at some point you will be so inconvenienced with your preparations for the what ifs, you'll have to wonder if it's all worth it. So somewhere in there you do what you're comfortable with and make a compromise. I'm really still trying to decide if carrying an extra mag is worth it or not. Hmmm. After all this, I'll probably carry one :)

  14. #59
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    Obviously you can "best guess" where matiki drew his personal line just based on his comment.
    He carries his full size primary & spare mags and a BUG with spare mags.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpw View Post
    Honestly, I'm just happy to see so many people taking on the responsibillity of carrying. Doesn't matter to me what they carry. I think if we had a much larger percentage of the population carrying nothing but a 5 shot snubby, we might see a huge reduction in violent crime. That's pretty much what I'm limited to at work but the rest of the time, I just like a little extra insurance against the Murphy's in life.
    Agreed!

    Although I feel that ONE gun and no extra ammo is safe and adequate in MY ENVIRONMENT, I'm certainly not against someone else carrying more if they want to.

    To be honest, around here, I'm more worried about being hurt with a deer collision than I am worried about encountering a thug. :)

    Ken

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