Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal

This is a discussion on Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There are many not to uncommon scenarios between the single assailant self defense and the mad man or men on a rampage, presented by the ...

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 61 to 74 of 74

Thread: Self-defense expectations: "normal" vs. abnormal

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    2,618
    There are many not to uncommon scenarios between the single assailant self defense and the mad man or men on a rampage, presented by the OP.
    As in the car load of gang bangers who gunned down a little girl because she was wearing a red dress, with fifteen onlookers doing nothing or the group of thugs in Seattle who were gang rapping men.
    That said the likely hood that I will ever have need of my weapon is unlikely.
    Yet I carry in the event that I do need it.
    Those that presume that one or two shoots should get the job done, maybe right or may have never had to make that shot while being shot at, I don't know.
    Unlike other greater men I accept that I fall short of being the ultimate warrior.
    So I train & practice as best I can, and carry whatever may help stack the odds in my favor.
    Thats fiber optic night sights though I may never take a sighted shot in SD.
    A laser though I may never have time to turn it on.
    A spare mag though though I may never need more than a few rounds because I can not always pick my battles or the conditions that they may occur.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #62
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    723
    I like to think that I'm getting wiser with age....

    I started carrying with a 5rd 380 and didnt even OWN a second mag. A year ago I went to a 14rd 40, worn everyday in a close quarters environment.


    I see no reason to handicap myself with an inferior firearm or inferior cartidge. The larger gun is easier to handle and shoot and has no problem concealing with my everyday gear.

    If you believe that a 5rd wheelgun is all you need, I hope you never run into 2 or 3 BGs. one on one, you have a fair chance. multiple BG, you are in a hard spot. May as well give yourself all of the advantage you can!



    Although in fairness for the small gun crowd, the last time I drew the conflict was resolved with one shot. But it was a 4-legged critter :-)

  4. #63
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    So. Central PA
    Posts
    1,726
    Interesting thread.

    For home defense I decided I needed to be able to deal with two determined invaders or several that would leave after the first one drew fire. So I bought a G19, installed a LaserMax and rail light, loaded up 2 spare mags with Cor-Bon +P and got a bed side safe. Began to participate in Action Pistol with the same gun. The second gun in the bed side safe is a CT grip equipped 686 - the wife doesn't like semi-autos.

    For out and about I decided to start by arming myself to enhance my chances of getting out of Dodge. My 65 year old motor skills and vision aren't conducive to moving toward a fight, I want to get away if that is possible. If it isn't, I'll do the best I can with what I have.

    I looked at a Kel-Tec but just couldn't make myself buy it regardless of price or size. I saw two at the range, they were jamming every second magazine.

    I came home with a Walther PPK/S (I have two of them - one is W. German, the other is made by S&W and has been modified to have Novak Sights). Got used to packing it. Added a second magazine in the pocket. I pack the S&W made one - it isn't nearly as pretty, but it is reliable as gravity and has much better sights.

    I might find myself in a situation I can't get away from where there is a well armed agressor with semi-auto rifle and multiple handguns - if I do, I'm not well equipped to deal with it. I practice with the PPK twice a month, but I don't shoot it nearly as well as my GP100. The PPK is not a 25 yard gun, it is more like a 25' gun. I group about 4" at 25' with it semi-rapid fire. I group 1" to 1.25" semi rapid fire double action with the GP100 at 25'.

    I can't hide the GP100 well enough to carry it. Period. Not gonna happen.

    I've been looking for something I can conceal that I can shoot better (farther - maybe 25 yards - with the certainty of placing shots in a 4" circle shooting offhand - I can do that with the GP100) than the PPK. For me, that sort of accuracy requires a handgun with much better inherent accuracy than the current crop of polymer handguns - most of them won't do 4" at 25 yards off a Ransom Rest. Besides, I can't conceal the G19, it is just plain too fat with too big a grip for IWB carry on my aging body.

    So I've been looking at the single stack 1911 variants. They are relatively slim wheren they would go in the holster between me and my belt - a feature. Some are very accurate (Wilson Sentinel and Springfield EMP) but expensive. I've shot an EMP and did as well with it as I do with the GP100, will probably have a hard time finding a Wilson Sentinel to shoot with out buying one. The other candidate is the Para PDA or Carry 9 (the same gun, the PDA has night sights and different finish).

    None of the candidates have more than a 1 round advantage over the PPK/S, but I think I might be able to shoot them as well as I do the GP100. So I keep my eyes open at gun counters looking for used ones. So far I've not seen a single used EMP, CArry 9, or Wilson Sentinel. There might be a message in that fact - folks that have them like them and don't sell them!

    I don't like having a carry 1911 with the extra safety lever that could be bumped off which has stopped me from just buying the EMP.

    I'm not going forth to counter rifle armed suicide shooters, don't have the skills regardless of handgun chosen. But I might convince them to move away from me.

    Fitch

  5. #64
    Member Array ken45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    183
    Fitch,

    The Springfield Loaded are good, reliable guns that are less costly than the Wilson's etc. I also hear good things about the Rock Island 1911's and they are the economy versions ($400-500). I'd go for the upgraded model which has better sights than the GI model.

    If you are okay with a 9mm and like more capacity, the FEG clone of the Browning High Power is a good gun and will give you 14 or 15 rounds in the magazine. You'll probably have to find a used one, I understand that FEG has shut down. But replacement parts is not an issue since they compatible with the Brownings.

    If you carry IWB, then the length of a full sized gun 1911 or HP shouldn't be an issue. I agree that the slim 1911/HP guns do make concealment easier.

    Ken

  6. #65
    Senior Member Array coffeecup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Cadiz,Ky
    Posts
    1,145
    Here's a thought for you concerning mall and church shootings. What if everyone in the mall or church were armed? The perp just might think he had happened upon D-day all over again. It wouldnt make much difference what kind of weapon he had, it would all be over with before it got a good start.

  7. #66
    kpw
    kpw is offline
    VIP Member Array kpw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,149
    Hi Fitch, The Hi Power is a good choice if your concerned about thickness. Don't worry too much about the safety slipping off, I've never had it happen with any sa pistol I've carried. Around here, you can find good used ones around $500. A lot of the poly guns can shoot into 4" at 25 yds, it's just that most people can't do it. Another thought might be the Walther PPS.

  8. #67
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    So. Central PA
    Posts
    1,726
    Ken45, kpw,

    Thanks for the Browing Hi-Power Suggestion. I think I know where I can try one. I'll do that.

    I'm fine with 9mmP, it's a definite upgrade from the .380 Federal HS I'm carrying now. 9mmP Cor-Bon +P is pretty good ammo. I shoot a 9mmP considerably better than I shoot a .40. I do just fine with a full size 1911 .45, but the handle is so big it prints no matter what I do.

    Hmmm, I wonder if the BHPO is OK for +P 9mm? Need to check that.

    Thanks Again
    Fitch

  9. #68
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    So. Central PA
    Posts
    1,726
    Ken45,

    I read your post again. I'll also take a look at the 3.5" barrel Springfield Loaded (handle is the same size as the shorter barrel so might as well get the longer barrel for more energy and longer sight radius). It's available with out an ambidexterous safety, or could be easily converted to not have one, so that works for me. I've fired a full size one of those and liked it a lot - shot reasonable groups with it.

    Springfield makes good guns, no doubt about it. They've been making 1911's since before I was born.

    Thanks Again
    Fitch

  10. #69
    Member Array S3ymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    458

    Prepare for the worst Hope for the best

    While a simple 5-6 shot snubbie may do for the average encounter, we are a people who believe in being prepared. Chances are that average or non average encounter will never happen to any of us. If it does I want to be able to say I brought the right tools for the job. If it so happens that I only have a snubbie on me, then I'll find a way to make it work. That being said, I'm a firm believer that if you prepare for the worst possible outcome, chances are you more prepared for how to negate that outcome. By bringing superior firepower, you just get one more advantage. Typically we are fighting against overwhelming surprise in an unexpected situation no matter how much we train. To come out on top we need to be able to respond quickly and accurately. If you want to train and fight with only 6 shots with no reloads, and hope that you are only in an average encounter, then by all means, I wish you the best. IMO I want to be able to at least have a chance in the non average scenario, to increase odds of survival. I train to stop the threat, and the threat is unpredictable. While I may never need the two other mags I carry, or the gun I carry, I have them and am prepared to use them.
    "All war is deception" --Sun Tzu
    MOΛΩN ΛABÉ

  11. #70
    kpw
    kpw is offline
    VIP Member Array kpw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitch View Post
    They've been making 1911's since before I was born.
    Hey Fitch, they've been making Hi Powers since before you were born too! My Dad is 65, you guys ain't that old.

  12. #71
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    So. Central PA
    Posts
    1,726
    Quote Originally Posted by kpw View Post
    Hey Fitch, they've been making Hi Powers since before you were born too! My Dad is 65, you guys ain't that old.
    I know they have been making them for quite a while. It is a classic pistol in every sense. I saw some in the display counter at the local Gander Mt. I'll look them over next time I'm there.

    Holding that thought about age.

    I'm still riding horses, cleaning stalls, and working out for an hour each morning, and enjoying the heck out of retirement.

    Fitch

  13. #72
    Member Array ken45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitch View Post
    Ken45,

    I read your post again. I'll also take a look at the 3.5" barrel Springfield Loaded (handle is the same size as the shorter barrel so might as well get the longer barrel for more energy and longer sight radius). It's available with out an ambidexterous safety, or could be easily converted to not have one, so that works for me. I've fired a full size one of those and liked it a lot - shot reasonable groups with it.

    Springfield makes good guns, no doubt about it. They've been making 1911's since before I was born.

    Thanks Again
    Fitch
    Fitch,

    What I have heard is that reliability of the 1911 platform goes down when the barrel gets under 4.25 or 4". Some say that shorter barrels are stretching the design beyond where it is capable of being reliable. OTOH, I've heard of many satisfied people with 3.5" 1911's. But to me, I prefer the longer barrels for the same reasons you noted.

    I have an older Kimber Compact (4", shortened grip). It has always been reliable and conceals and carries well.

    Are you talking about removing the safety? Most people are afraid to carry a single action cocked without having a safety engaged. I too worry a bit about letting off the safety in a life and death situation, that's why I prefer a Sig.

    Another gun you might consider is the CZ75 and it's compact variants. The slide on the CZ is about the same size as a BHP but the grip is a bit bigger. However, the compact verisions might be better in that area (there are 3 or 4 different models). I have a full sized CZ and it's a good, reliable gun. I've heard good things about the smaller ones but I've never seen one. Most of the CZs are DA/SA so you don't have to worry about the safety, although they can be carried "cocked and locked" if one wishes.

    As for Springfield "being around since before you were born", I doubt it. The current corporation is only about ten years old. They purchased the name rights from the old government arsenal, but other than that they are not related. However, everything I've heard about their guns has been very positive. I have a 9mm 1911 ("Loaded" model) it's it's never had a problem.

    Ken
    (just in from feeding the horses and cleaning stalls too. Agree, retirement is great.)

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    MS
    Posts
    2,261
    What's normal?
    I live ,play, and work in jackson,ms. I don't know the actual stats (maybe someone knows where tofind them)but on a per capita basis we are pretty high on the crime list.
    I have 2 out of my 5 BF that have been shot at in the last year.
    Both times the bg missed.
    One was he really wanted my buddys new GT mustang, ended up shooting out the driver side mirror, and a second round thru the rear quarter panel.
    The other was 3 bg's really wanted my buddys girlfriend, a fist fight started and one of them pulled a gun as 4 guys came running out of the restuarant, he fired 3 times as they were running away, who knows where they went.
    Everyday i see groups of 4-5-6- guys hanging out on corners, in parking lots, and everywhere you look.
    currently the JPD is 50+ officers down, 1 station should have 11 cars on patrol, they have 3.
    Im not ex-mil, leo , ninja I'm just 30 years old with no kids.
    In this day and time I find myself, if I come across bg doing bg things to innocent people, I don't think I could walk away.
    My father was S.O. for 10+ years and I shot my first pistol very young, Im no super marksman and even now with the price of ammo I don"t practice no where near enough.(can't afford it)
    Me and my usp have a pretty good working relatonship and I carry a extra mag,I want a bug. 25rounds.
    THE BIGGEST CRIME IS WE PAY THESE GUYS $18,000 a year to keep us all safe, and they wonder why they can"t recruit.
    Whatever state your in it's a pretty good chance your prison system is maxed.
    I don't understand why everyone dosen't want to carry, or why lawmakers harass the ones that say "here is my fingerprints, my picture, my address, my whatever.
    We all die', if i go out being shot from being outnumbered by bgs while trying to save or help the less able so be it, our boys are doing that for us all over the world everyday.
    Anyway so so long And all 5 of my BF carry now.
    If you have a responsible good friend,instead of hiding so much who says the gg can"t recruit. I feel better Thanks
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Shelby County TN
    Posts
    11,107
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterCartwright View Post
    If this reflection is merely a boring rehash, please forgive me and ignore the post: I've been thinking of late about the contrast between the "average" kind of self-defense incident (e.g. for example, those cited monthly in NRA publications) vs. the extrordinary kinds of events we've all witnessed in national news (e.g. the determined suicidal shooter who assulted the Denver area church). It strikes me that the self-defense needs between these two scenarios are very different.

    I can't remember reading about an incident in which an "average" self-defense episode required a reload. Nor, for that matter, can I remember any of these "average" encounters that wouldn't have been suitably served by a good old "J" frame stuffed with appropriate ammunition. (I'm not trying to restart any arguments here, merely making a point. Stay with me.)

    On the other hand, I suspect that many of us are beginning to think about the the "extrordinary" incident-like the suicidal maniac who attacks the mega church, or the deeply disturbed teen who decides to play "Terminator" at the mall. It strikes me that the expecations between "average" self-defense needs and "extrordinary" situations give very different answers to the kind of arm one may choose to carry, number of rounds carried, etc.

    My personal expectation as a civilian, is that my primary responsibility is to protect myself and my loved ones while I seek to withdraw from trouble. Still, if a "terminator" began shooting at everybody in sight while I was at the mall, I'd personally feel more comforted by the precision, reach and capacity of my Sig P220 over my trusty 642. Thoughts?
    I think you are exactly right there.
    One of the reasons I carry my Glock 23 all the time and almost exclusively now is the reasons you cite.

    My thoughts here are similar to yours and one thing I realized a long while ago is this: if you plan and gear yourself for the "extraordinary Self defense" situation, you will also be more than well equiped for the "normal self defense" situation.

    Just my thoughts on it.
    ,=====o00o _
    //___l__,\____\,__
    l_--- \___l---[]lllllll[]
    (o)_)-o- (o)_)--o-)_)

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. "You Cannot Process me with a Normal Brain"
    By LanceORYGUN in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: March 2nd, 2011, 10:13 AM
  2. Man Attacked by Witchcraft Opens Fire on Neighbor's "Voodoo" House in Self-Defense
    By LanceORYGUN in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: October 26th, 2010, 10:15 PM
  3. Salt Lake Tribune editorial's take on "brandishing for self-defense"
    By cyberdogg in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: February 6th, 2010, 06:07 PM
  4. Univeristy of Akron's "Defense Plan" Codename ALICE
    By dsee11789 in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: September 19th, 2008, 09:04 AM
  5. Marine starts self defense "tupperware" parties
    By paramedic70002 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: May 30th, 2008, 10:07 PM

Search tags for this page

concealed carry expectations
,
expections on self defense
,
fired in self defense
,
instance of concealed carry used for self defense
,
normal and abnormal person self-defense
,
phrase carry what you can when you can
,
rambo defense in pawn shop shooting of wife in fullerton
,

self defense expectations

,

self+defense+by+abnormal person

,
springfield emp vs wilson sentenial
,
urban legend gun fight elevator rounds fired and neither person being hit by any of the rounds
,
what caliber gun was kyle dinkheller using
Click on a term to search for related topics.