South Carolina People - Alcohol Carry discussion

This is a discussion on South Carolina People - Alcohol Carry discussion within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am a SC CWP instructor and LEO. I called SLED today to get a clarification so that I can instruct my customers/students properly. They ...

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Thread: South Carolina People - Alcohol Carry discussion

  1. #31
    Member Array yourbestdefense's Avatar
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    I am a SC CWP instructor and LEO. I called SLED today to get a clarification so that I can instruct my customers/students properly. They told me that carrying in an establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption is prohibited according to section 16-23-465.

    The language is as follows:

    "SECTION 16 23 465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on premises consumption.

    In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16 11 330 and 16 23 460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
    In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked."

    After reading this, I still won't be advising my customers/students to carry in those places. I will ask them to contact their legislators and ask them to remove all carry prohibitions from the statutes. These restrictions need to be removed since the CWP holders are obviously the good guys. The police can't be everywhere at once to protect every citizen.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array XD in SC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    Looks like it will take a popular vote of the SC Supreme Court to decide this but I don't plan to be the test case. I nominate XD in SC to do it and I will donate $10 to the defense fund.
    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    All true it appears.


    Me too! I'll even go $20!
    Thanks guys! I finally get nominated for something and it's to be a test case for the State of SC.

    I didn't say I wanted to test the system.

    The real question is what cphilip asked..... what do we do from here?

    Beg for a change in either direction, or leave it alone and wait for a test case? I don't think we will see a test case, like you said no one will probably be arrested and charged with JUST carrying w/ CWP. It will probably be tied to something else.

    I also don't know if it's wise to ask SLED anything. They are just the issuers for the permit. I fear if we ask too many questions, they can swing this to a strict law about the subject. I am not sure they really support the CWP.
    Last edited by XD in SC; March 3rd, 2008 at 09:21 PM. Reason: grammer
    Sean
    XD 9SC | XD 45ACP Service | XD 45ACP Compact |Borealis
    "You may know where you are. God may know where you are. If you don't tell your dispatcher where you are, you'd better be on speaking terms with God!"

  4. #33
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Probably leave it alone. Whenever you start stirring the pot you better be ready for whatever rises to the top. It sounds like it is being handled internally and quietly. It really wouldn't take much for it to become a real mess so I say don't stir too much.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    Probably leave it alone. Whenever you start stirring the pot you better be ready for whatever rises to the top. It sounds like it is being handled internally and quietly. It really wouldn't take much for it to become a real mess so I say don't stir too much.
    That actually was my very first final conclusion! Do nothing for now... its the safest plan. It was my thought that its better, in some ways like it is. You know that saying "the Devil you know... "

    I plan on seeing what Grass Roots has to say about their efforts. And I think I might can find some interesting communication on enforcement guidance (or better yet NON enforcement guidance).

    But... as it stands we really have nothing to actually fight that would result in a Better situation. We just don't have guidance thats clear and properly given is all. We have only "opinions".

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourbestdefense View Post
    I am a SC CWP instructor and LEO. I called SLED today to get a clarification so that I can instruct my customers/students properly. They told me that carrying in an establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption is prohibited according to section 16-23-465.

    The language is as follows:

    "SECTION 16 23 465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on premises consumption.

    In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16 11 330 and 16 23 460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
    In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked."

    After reading this, I still won't be advising my customers/students to carry in those places. I will ask them to contact their legislators and ask them to remove all carry prohibitions from the statutes. These restrictions need to be removed since the CWP holders are obviously the good guys. The police can't be everywhere at once to protect every citizen.
    If thats the law they quoted they haven't bothered to read it.

    Concealed carry with permit is "lawful Carry"... by its very definition. Its defined and its prohibitions are listed elsewhere. But alcohol ain't one of them... I gave you all the above references and citations earlier.... you have to read them carefully to conclude that they are wrong... its not even applicable to CWP Lawfully carried in those places. Not at all. I think they want it to be... they may have intended for it to be... but the legislators missed the mark.

    But... you would need to go back to the start where this thread started.

    We know they are telling you that. They tell us all that... thats old news... but it don't jive with the laws. But they have nothing else to tell us but that. I understand their position. The legislators just did not properly write this law. I don't think they want to see it any other way because it opens up a whole mess. I didn't even want to find it out!

    But I wouldn't teach it any different than they tell you. Just one day one of your smart students is going to argue with you... and be right... '}

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array jframe38's Avatar
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    I spoke to a LEO today at a gun shop and he stated the obvious law but hinted that if I was in one of those restaurants w/family and someone started shooting and I had to defended myself or family member that it would most likely go my way w/the law. That's was just his take on the matter.
    By the way I called SLED a few months ago concerning the legality of purchasing a gun out of state and was told that I could just cross state lines and purchase the gun.
    This is not legal. That statement "additonal penalty" is not really that clear.
    Personally for me I've carried in an establishment that serves alcohol because I'd rather never have to regret that something terrible happened because my gun was in the car. By the way I am careful not to drink alcoholic beverages & only sit at the dinner tables, never at the bar.
    Last edited by pgrass101; March 5th, 2008 at 03:45 PM. Reason: Clearing out potential illegal activities

  8. #37
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    If it is a shotgun or rifle you can drive over to GA or NC and purchase it. A handgun is a no-no however I had a friend that did it with a handgun by carrying a copy of a FFL with him. (Not sure if it was legal but did it anyway).

    I would be surprise if they ever raided Fatz but the local do-drop-inn is a different story. Stay away from Five Points in Columbia with guns, you never know when you might run into a USC football player there and have to use it. :)

  9. #38
    New Member Array billc1972's Avatar
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    Scan of South Carolina Attorney General's Letter

    I'm sorry for the delay, but I've had a few busy days and couldn't get this posted. Here is a scan of the letter that I received from the SC Attorney General's Office on this matter.

    SCAGLetter.pdf - Windows Live SkyDrive

  10. #39
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Thank you for posting that. I read it. :)

    It is clear to me that there is a loophole and he went to great lengths to try to explain it away with legal jargon and legislative intent. They may have meant one thing but it is very clear that they should have read the law before they passed it because what the law say and what the AG's opinion tried to state are two different things. it does not take 7 pages to say yes or no on this law unless you are trying to BS someone and that is exactly what we have here.

    Now for that test case, I raise my support to $20. :)

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Thanks Billc! Great stuff.

    Great summation FN1910. Exactly... how hard do you have to try to not admit the truth? LOL...

    Notice how he sort of implys that SLED and his office have sort of disagreed about this in the past too? And he completely doesn't even address the fact that the section he keeps referring too must first be an ""unlawful Carry" to even apply. And that the section right above it defines Lawful Carry as being in compliance with the Concealed Carry laws in order to not apply at all. There are two very importan Sections that take CWP carry completely out of the picture in application of this particular section, and he fails to even point to them or address that. Which is the whole crux of the matter. If you ignore the preceding laws there, then and only then, can you even attempt to argue what he is trying to argue. And to do so is to ignore the primary section with the definitions that include what is Lawful carry and Unlawful carry. A pour piece of fiction if you do that. But not surprising. I think he is right about one thing, that the legislator didn't want carry in Bars. But I seriously doubt they wanted to restrict it in Restaraunt's. I think he is reaching there. If they did, they simply would have added it to the restrictions of places to carry. All the ones he lists as examples ARE listed in the list of prohibited places to carry except this one!

    I'm still of the mindset they should simply add either a "most of income derived from sale of Alcohol" or a "51% Derived from.." rule in the prohibitions section like they should have in the first place.

    Ah well... We know where it all stands now. And its clear as mud ain't it? I just wanted to get this out there is all. I don't expect to change the world but I will keep trying!

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array SCfromNY's Avatar
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    I've been following this discussion and have a few comments.

    The CWP instructers at the Myrtle Beach range are advising that there is NO restriction BUT advise against carry in a true bar anyway.

    It seems simple to me. If I was new and applying for a permit I could check both the SLED site and the SC law site and under:

    Places you can not carry. . . Establishments selling alcoholic beverages for consumption on premises. . . is MISSING! So how can you teach a restriction that is not printed anywhere. SLED never appears anxious to spread the word. Two years ago the State PArk police while commented on a gun in the park indicating is was not legal to carry in state parks. A rule that was changed about 2 years before the incident.

    I thank everyone for bringing this out and if I become the test case I will post my address for donations.
    Registration: A prelude to Confiscation and Anarchy.

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