January 20th, 2008 06:01 PM
South Carolina People - Alcohol Carry discussion
Hold on to your hats.
I am going to lay out a case here and at the bottom I am going to copy and paste all the references from the appropriate laws...
As to what you may ask?
To the fact that there NEVER WAS a prohibition on Concealed Carry in "places that serve alcohol for consumption on the premises" for Concealed Permit Holders.
It was simply an "additional offense" clause to charge when concealed carry was done with unlawful intent.
You can go to the list of Prohibited places for CWP's and you will not find it there. It never was. However, SLED did for a while teach it and list it as such. But it no longer is even mentioned... thats because it was WRONG.
It was taught that it was a prohibition to CWP's and it was intended for us to believe it was the case. But you're going to see (if you carefully follow through all this) that, in fact, a concealed weapons permit is the "Exception" to that.
And all the other laws are for criminal activity.
Now, what are you going to do with this? You're going to do what you wish and I am not going to go to court with you.
You're on your own how you interpret this.
And please don't drink and carry.
But this might get you into Appleby's... and if you're not convinced then DON'T carry. Your choice. Not mine.
I am not a lawyer nor am I going to take liability for your decisions.
I was told this all indirectly that this was the case by LEO's that will go unmentioned. They are training other LEO's though and they are telling them this.... and I didn't believe it when I heard it.... But I do now....
Here is your reading assignment.
You have to follow each reference carefully to the next.
Each one is posted after then next so carefully scan for the pertinent reference to this subject in each Chapter, Article and Title.
I will pull out the law that lead us to believe it.
And you will see that if your charged with an offense dealing with a Concealed Weapon you will then lose you CWP.
But... as a result of criminal activity or intent, not for simply carrying.
Starts here (these are the exact titles of the laws):
[i]OFFENSES INVOLVING WEAPONS
SECTION 16-23-465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on-premises consumption.
In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked.
[i]Sections 16-11-330 and 16-23-460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16
SECTION 16-23-20. Unlawful carrying of handgun; exceptions.
It is unlawful for anyone to carry about the person any handgun, whether concealed or not, except as follows, unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law:
(1) regular, salaried law enforcement officers, and reserve police officers of a state agency, municipality, or county of the State, uncompensated Governor's constables, law enforcement officers of the federal government or other states when they are carrying out official duties while in this State, deputy enforcement officers of the Natural Resources Enforcement Division of the Department of Natural Resources, and retired commissioned law enforcement officers employed as private detectives or private investigators;
(2) members of the Armed Forces of the United States, the National Guard, organized reserves, or the State Militia when on duty;
(3) members, or their invited guests, of organizations authorized by law to purchase or receive firearms from the United States or this State or regularly enrolled members, or their invited guests, of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting or collecting modern and antique firearms while these members, or their invited guests, are at or going to or from their places of target practice or their shows and exhibits;
(4) licensed hunters or fishermen who are engaged in hunting or fishing or going to or from their places of hunting or fishing while in a vehicle or on foot;
(5) a person regularly engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, repossessing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of this person, while possessing, using, or carrying a handgun in the usual or ordinary course of the business;
(6) guards authorized by law to possess handguns and engaged in protection of property of the United States or any agency of the United States;
(7) members of authorized military or civil organizations while parading or when going to and from the places of meeting of their respective organizations;
(8) a person in his home or upon his real property or a person who has the permission of the owner or the person in legal possession or the person in legal control of the home or real property;
(9) a person in a vehicle if the handgun is:
(a) secured in a closed glove compartment, closed console, closed trunk, or in a closed container secured by an integral fastener and transported in the luggage compartment of the vehicle; however, this item is not violated if the glove compartment, console, or trunk is opened in the presence of a law enforcement officer for the sole purpose of retrieving a driver's license, registration, or proof of insurance; or
(b) concealed on or about his person, and he has a valid concealed weapons permit pursuant to the provisions of Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23;
(10) a person carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or fixed place of business or while in the process of changing or moving one's residence or changing or moving one's fixed place of business;
(11) a prison guard while engaged in his official duties;
(12) a person who is granted a permit under provision of law by the State Law Enforcement Division to carry a handgun about his person, under conditions set forth in the permit, and while transferring the handgun between the permittee's person and a location specified in item (9);
(13) the owner or the person in legal possession or the person in legal control of a fixed place of business, while at the fixed place of business, and the employee of a fixed place of business, other than a business subject to Section 16-23-465, while at the place of business; however, the employee may exercise this privilege only after: (a) acquiring a permit pursuant to item (12), and (b) obtaining the permission of the owner or person in legal control or legal possession of the premises;
S.C. Code of Laws Title 23 Chapter 31 Firearms - www.scstatehouse.net-LPITS
S.C. Code of Laws Title 16 Chapter 23 Offenses Involving Weapons - www.scstatehouse.net-LPITS
South Carolina Legislature Online - South Carolina Code of Laws
Last edited by QKShooter; February 29th, 2008 at 03:34 AM.
Reason: Adding links
January 20th, 2008 06:08 PM
You see that the two important things are... the Prohibition exists only in an Additional Penalties section of the Criminal Portion of Chapter 16
The Exception to CWP carry in a Alcohol serving establishment, even being a criminal act in itself, is then over in Chapter 23. Which makes Licensed carry with no criminal intent and with a valid license, alone, not a criminal act.
And last, is a link to the CWP laws, as to how you can get one and what the prohibited places are. I will post them below but note... Places that Serve Alcohol for consumption on the premises is NOT in the list
(M) A permit issued pursuant to this section does not authorize a permit holder to carry a concealable weapon into a:
(1) police, sheriff, or highway patrol station or any other law enforcement office or facility;
(2) detention facility, prison, or jail or any other correctional facility or office;
(3) courthouse or courtroom;
(4) polling place on election days;
(5) office of or the business meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special purpose district;
(6) school or college athletic event not related to firearms;
(7) daycare facility or pre-school facility;
(8) place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law;
(9) church or other established religious sanctuary unless express permission is given by the appropriate church official or governing body; or
(10) hospital, medical clinic, doctor's office, or any other facility where medical services or procedures are performed unless expressly authorized by the employer.
A person who wilfully violates a provision of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years.
Last edited by cphilip; January 20th, 2008 at 07:25 PM.
January 20th, 2008 06:43 PM
Dang Phillip, I do believe that you are correct. I assumed that they were listed in the off limits places but unless you C&P'd wrong they aren't. Nice little tidbit of information there and I take it you are going to be our test case? I'm not!
January 20th, 2008 07:01 PM
They are very hush hush about this. They trained all their trainers to tell us it was off limits. They just simply misinterpreted two different laws because one made some mention of surrendering CWP if you committed that offense. I would not expect them to want to ANNOUNCE to the world that you can carry into a place that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises. In fact I would expect many LEO's do not know that interpretation is wrong. But its being told to cadets at Police Academy that we are not violating any law and not to arrest us. They are also being told that "We" (meaning us CWP holders) think it is against the law.
But in order to commit that offense you have to go into a Place that serves alcohol intent on Robbery, Assault, violating a restraining order... well... things that are criminal offenses that then would result in them applying this "additional offense" charge if you also had a Concealed Weapon while doing so in a place that served alcohol for consumption on the premises. That was never intended to be applied as a "restriction of Concealable Weapons Permit" carry places or it simply would have been put in the prohibited carry section where it would then belong. And it's not there.
Now... one is not wise to carry into a bar intent on drinking... but wise and illegal is two different things. But it could end up being illegal if you commit a crime.
January 20th, 2008 07:13 PM
looks like you put your work in... it might be worth it to write a few letters to SC Dep of Justice or local LE to confirm and get an "insurance letter" in case something happens.
topic seems worth SC firearm community review...
Last edited by nutz4utwo; January 20th, 2008 at 07:14 PM.
"a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.
January 20th, 2008 07:16 PM
Dunno if I wanna open that can of worms!
And I betcha if you ask half the LEO's in the state they will think its illegal. I know if you ask all the CWP's they will tell you it is. Because they were TOLD it was. And SLED, for a while, thought it was. All the new LEO's are being taught that its not illegal. And eventually that should trickle down.
Up to you if you want to act on this. Which would be your risk... but I doubt... if your just concealed and there is no trouble... and your not drunk.... and something like you just become unconcealed... even if they tried to arrest you thinking this applies... there would be no charges. But again, drinking and carrying don't mix. There are lots of other issues there. But going into Appleby's and having dinner and Ice Tea would probably not be an issue.
What concerns me even more about this is, if we publicize this, what will the Anti's do with it. I can see them now! "People can go drinking and carry guns legally in SC and all they have to do is have a card! What will we do!!!! I can see them pushing for legislation! The fact we have no restriction there is almost worse than some minor and reasonable restriction in that case. This may be a reason why SLED and LEO's are not going to publicize this and would rather just keep it mum. I am inclined to agree with that.
Your welcome to copy and paste the Titles, Chapters and Articles and paste them in to Google as a search for SC and read each one. Takes some time to find each one. But its all at the SC legislature site. Pretty easy to find but you have to go look at each reference to another law and then trace that one down till you get to that. I condensed it as best I could.
January 20th, 2008 07:32 PM
I'd talk to a good attorney on this one to start with.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
January 20th, 2008 07:51 PM
Otherwise I would just keep this amongst ourselves and be aware.
January 20th, 2008 09:47 PM
It appears that as long as you don't meet the "Unlawful" carry, one is legal to carry in places that serves alcohol if you have a permit or meet one of the other criteria. They define what "Unawful Carry" is. Has anyone sought the attorney general's opinon on this?
January 20th, 2008 10:27 PM
I am told that the AG (or someone from his office?) is the one that pointed it out to SLED that it did not mean what they originally thought it did. And since it never WAS law they did not have to go back to legislators and change a thing.
It never was in the Concealed Carry law which is in Title 23 Chapter 31 so it did not have to be removed or changed.
That reference was always in Title 16 "Crimes and Offenses" chapter 23 - "offenses involving weapons" which is all the Criminal Codes.
And Lawful Carry with permit is... not criminal nor is it specifically precluded by any other law... even in a place that serves alcohol for consumption on the premises.
So, reportedly, they started teaching this fact to LEO's after they were informed it was not illegal.
I can also tell you that they are teaching a very straight, no nonsense, interpretation of the No Carry sign posting. They are being taught that if it is not perfectly posted according to the verbiage it will not be enforced. Which is good.
January 20th, 2008 11:10 PM
Cphilip, Thanks for the research. I'm soon to file for my SC permit and had wondered about this issue. I couldn't find the restriction that everyone referenced.
January 21st, 2008 04:49 AM
January 21st, 2008 07:59 AM
In NC is clearly states we cannot carry in a establishment that serves alchohol. The above is clear as mud and not sure I would push it. I would contact the Grass Roots division of SC and work with them to get the law Clearly changed! I believe that the Grass Roots organizations are doing more for our gun rights than any other organization out there. I know the chapter in NC is working very hard to get this law changed as well as some of the other ones that make no sense, like carrying at a parade or funeral? They are also working hard to get Castle Law passed here. We need to do all we can to defeat the anti guns on their level = polictics. So vote and vote wisely, a lot could be riding on this.
When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
January 21st, 2008 08:17 AM
Anyone know why Applebee's seems to always be the example used in discussion of this law? I understand the thought behind the "no exception" on alcohol sales but always thought it needed to be a difference between your resturant/sports bar and the local "juke joint". I grew up in the age of Saturday Night Specials at the local joint and there was an average of at least two shootings a week at the "Quarters" as it was known. However I really fell much safer in a nice restaurant than in the parking lot of Wal-Mart.
January 21st, 2008 09:12 AM
In many states it is clearly spelled out in their concealed carry law as an item in their prohibited carry places list. In ours it never was.
Appleby's has sort of become the "key reference example" used by us CWPers to show why we thought our law was excessive. Sort of like the Walmart trip is used to indicate we have just gotten our CWP. I don't know why.... it just happened. You could easily substitute almost any place. Almost any place serves alcohol for consumption these days. Which is why what we were told the law said made no real sense. But it appears in error now.
I don't go into bars anyway. So thats a moot point to me. I did, however, always disarm to go to my local steak house.
What you do with this information is up to you. If you don't feel comfortable with it then do what you feel is safest for you.
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