Rant about "A failure to confront evil". (Long)
This is a discussion on Rant about "A failure to confront evil". (Long) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would like to take a moment to describe my interaction with the salesman at a local big corporate store where I purchased my Remington ...
January 24th, 2008 05:32 PM
Rant about "A failure to confront evil". (Long)
I would like to take a moment to describe my interaction with the salesman at a local big corporate store where I purchased my Remington 870.
My salesman, his name was Paul, was a person about my age. I am in my fifties so we sort of had a generational rapport right off the bat. I had two interactions with him. The first one was on my initial visit to the store to see if they even had a Remington 870. I asked for the police version and he looked at me with a quizzical look and said, “why?” He then pointed out the 870 Marine and touted all the fine qualities of the shotgun. He was a very knowledgeable shooter. He has shot many different handguns, rifles and shotguns. He knew what he was talking about from personal experience.
My second interaction was when I came back a few days later to actually purchase the gun. I could see the smile on his face as I bought it (he is NOT on commission) because he knew that I was going to enjoy the gun.
As we were filling out the (stupid, oh did I say that??) paperwork, we got to talking about personal defense. He volunteered that he had been shot twice and stabbed twice in his life. He was a big guy, but even so, in high school, he was beat up many times by gang bangers. He took up martial arts after his first encounter and spent over 20 years becoming proficient in several different styles. He also learned to shoot very proficiently. (I never asked him if he carried.)
After reading about some of the stories on this forum, I asked him, what does one do if you are attacked by one or more gang members? His response (referring back to his high school days) is fight back, each and every time. He said that even if you lose, and chances are you are going to lose, they know that the next time they are at least going to encounter some resistance. That may deter them, it may not. Just depends. But they know it is going to happen.
I then asked him, what happens if you win the fight? He replied that even if you win, you lose, because there will be retribution. He added that it would be a good idea to avoid them in the future. Walk home a different way. Duck into a classroom if you see them coming down the hall. He mentioned that they would think nothing of killing you and then laughing at you as you bleed if they ever saw you on the street. Criminal charges? They don’t even cross their mind.
He then related a story of a man who saw two gang members fighting in the parking lot of his business. He walked outside and just said, “Hey, take that somewhere else!” The next day, two of them came back and shot him. He was able to shoot back and killed one of them. Amazingly, HE was put on trial for killing one of them. He was acquitted but he had to leave town to protect his life and family.
I mention all this because, to be frank, this whole self defense thing petrifies me. I have never been attacked. I don’t want to be. (duh) I am a non-confronter. But if I am attacked, even if I win, I am going to lose. And I have a lot to lose. I still have kids living at home. I have property. I have a job. I have an established reputation in this town. For me to stand trial, maybe go to jail for defending myself is frightening. And what if I am acquitted? What about retribution? To just pack up and move? What is to stop someone from tracking me down? It would not be hard for a determined person. The rest of your life will be lived in intense fear for the safety of yourself and your family.
I am not going to argue the other side. Yes, yes, I know. I am alive still. That is a good thing, but my main gripe, as I am sure it is for others, is that the system is against you and that is just wrong. We theoretically live in the most civilized nation on Earth. We are supposedly guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That has got to include a peaceable existence free from an overt criminal element. I am just amazed that a philosophy of “a failure to confront evil” has engulfed our society to the point that we are paralyzed to defend ourselves and our family. This is nuts. How do those people get in power?
Alright. I am done ranting. Let me just finish with saying that I am glad I have found a group of people who believes in the right to protect ourselves from evil. We need to stick together and support each other as much as possible.
God bless you all.
Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.
January 24th, 2008 05:43 PM
I hear where you're coming from. The idea of being tried for defending myself is scary and infuriating. Fortunately, if you look at SD cases as a whole, it seems that most times the good guy is not prosecuted. There are still far too many horror stories such as the one you mentioned, but I honestly don't believe those are the norm. A big factor in such cases is also where you live. As for retribution... well, you have to be alive for them to still want to kill you, so just be sure not to pull that trigger unless you absolutely have to.
“Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it.” ~Pericles of Athens
Primary Carry - Colt Commander .45 in a Brommeland Max-Con V
January 24th, 2008 07:12 PM
One owes it to society at large to stand up to evil...I think you know and agree with this. Otherwise you wouldn't have voiced your frustration.
Yeah, it stinks that we have to oppose and even suffer if we win against evil. What else are we to do though?
"If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18
...if not...be prepared to meet Mr.10mm, .45, .40 or any one of their little brothers.
January 24th, 2008 07:22 PM
Brother, I went through this agony many years ago, when a really BG client swore to kill me and the judge who was hearing the case.
Without boring the membership with the details, I had a wife (still do) and two little sons. I agonized over this, just like you are, because back then, Michigan was a long way from the Castle Doctrine, and as a lawyer, I was well aware of the potential criminal and civil liabilities.
But as a husband and father, I had an obligation to provide for them, monitarily and otherwise; an obligation that as a corpse would be impossible to do. I was up all night, and came to the conclusion that still motivates me: I will NOT be a victim! I WILL defend myself and my family.
And if there are consequences, they will not involve me being in the position of NOT taking care of the people who rely on me to do that.
January 24th, 2008 07:55 PM
The concerns are real, and I cannot imagine anyone who would not think of the consequences that would result. That is a major reason that witnesses "forget" what they see.
Each one has to weigh the pros and cons of such situations. There does not seem to be a win by the honest guy. The law protects the rights of the criminals, and does not protect the rights of the honest until after death at the hands of the BG.
But when one has a family he must consider the consequenses that are likely, and make a decision as to whether it is worth it to take on the BGs.
If attacked one has no alternative but to fight as best he can, but I agree if there is a likely threat take another route or do what you can to avoid a confrontation. You cannot take care of the wife and kids if you are killed or disabled.
On the other hand if we let ourselves be bullied into submission then we have lost the liberty just as sure as if Hitler won.
It would be nice if when threatened or the family threatened one could take preemptive action, but then the law would be on the side of the criminal.
Somewhere in our history we let the law make us men who no longer protect our wives, daughters and children.
A sad state of affairs, and each of us should try to think ahead to various scenarios and the actions we are willing to take.
January 24th, 2008 08:00 PM
When I was a kid, you stood up for yourself no matter what. The consequences of not doing so would make life miserable. Now, as a father, the consequences of standing up for myself is the scary part. Sometimes you have to walk a fine line between what is right and what is safe.
January 24th, 2008 08:04 PM
What's the song...you've got to stand for somethn or you'll fall for anything
Me and mine will come home at the end of the day god willing...I'll deal with the fallout with my living wife by my side.
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
January 24th, 2008 08:36 PM
Not just the law, but a culture that has been increasingly "feminized" -- where feminine traits are of almost ultimate value and masculine traits are, at best, tolerated.
Originally Posted by JerryM
January 24th, 2008 08:37 PM
I agree with that assessment.
Originally Posted by Fatherof10
January 24th, 2008 08:49 PM
Hm. I don't think that the "people in power" are so much to blame for this situation as the fact that Americans have such a generally comfortable and easy lifestyle. The more "civilized" a society becomes, the less its people are dealing with the day-to-day nitty-gritty of eeking out an existence. The more comfortable (economically) people are, the less they think about the simple fact of staying alive. I think that's where this mindset comes from.
Many people in our society seem to think that no one should ever die unless of old age. They are divorced from the reality of the human condition, which is incredibly violent. Remember that in the metaphor the sheep are scared of the capacity for violence in the sheepdog as well as the wolf.
You do what you have to do.
Also- just before i posted this I saw the last two posts. I think our culture is being softened by luxury more than anything else.
Oh yea - gang bangers don't have this problem.
January 24th, 2008 08:56 PM
Yeah, it sounds like you have the full range of awful consequences pretty well thought out. I am an armchair commentator on this as I have never been through any such situation, but let me try to make some sense of it.
You carry a gun so you can try to make sure everyone survives the worst. You have life insurance in case you don't but your loved ones do. You can get insurance against the legal costs of defending yourself in case you are indicted and tried. You can have insurance against civil suits, which includes your homeowner's policy if you are attacked at home. The fact that you are concerned enough about the rights and wrongs of self defense suggests that your chances of being in a bad shoot, and thus wide open to criminal or civil proceedings, are low.
You talk about a reputation in the community. Ayoob addresses Post Shooting Trauma, a distinctly different psychological entity than PTSD. You should read up on this. It is mostly about how people's attitude towards you change after such an event, and then you react to their reaction. The good news is that knowing about the possible symptoms ahead of time tends to reduce their severity. You may lose friends---you have to decide now that if that happens then they weren't very good friends to start with. Unlike most people who kill in self defense, you would have a very supportive community here that will understand your actions.
So, with some training, with some mental and financial and social preparation, there is a very good chance that most of the potentially terrible consequences can be, if not exactly minimized, at least made temporary, and not permanently debilitating.
That leaves the issue of retribution. The fact that a useless, oxygen-thieving scumbag might have others like him who will try to get even with you for defending yourself is just not something you can really prepare for, and it is probably the least fair part of the whole equation. Protecting yourself should not expose you to even more danger, but there you have it. I guess, like any other family emergency plan, you need to discuss with your family the possibility of getting out of Dodge in the event something like that ever happens.
Here's hoping none of these emergency plans never, ever need to be put into effect.
January 24th, 2008 10:00 PM
I'm 51 and when I was in school the gang members (we called them hoods back then) never fought one on one. They always beat up people as a group. Back then a kid could protect himself and get respect for it and they generally would leave you alone. The school would not give you a hard time if you didn't start it either. Now kids get suspended for protecting themselves. It teaches a bad lesson and bullies never learn a lesson and grow up to be bullies.
Life member NRA since 1983
I carry a Colt Delta Elite 10mm in Milt Sparks VM2 with 2 extra magazines on my belt. This is normally worn on a belt under my bib overalls and works great for me. My wife carries a Walther PPS .40 w/Crossbreed holster.
January 24th, 2008 10:14 PM
Each successive generation is becoming weaker and weaker physically, morally, and spiritually. We have little league games where score is not kept and no one wins or loses to "not hurt any one's feelings".
Advertising in all forms makes the strong appear boorish and stupid while portraying the ideal man as soft spoken, sheepish, weak and indecisive.
They call every little speed bump in the child raising adventure some kind of disease or condition, and the answer is to drug them up. Proper discipline is frowned upon, and manners are almost unheard of.
Hopefully, this trend will reverse itself, but I'm not holding my breath.
January 24th, 2008 11:08 PM
You're kidding...right?!? Please tell me you're kidding.
Originally Posted by PatP
January 25th, 2008 12:01 AM
It is your obligation to protect your self so you will be able to protect your family.
I try not to go to areas that might be a"bad hood". I mind my own business and don't get involved in things that don't concern me or my family.
These things will help minimise liability on your part.
Prey you never have to defend yourself or family , but if you do, take each issue one at a time and deal with it . At least you will be around to worry!
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