Protecting Kids in Parks
This is a discussion on Protecting Kids in Parks within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am both a lawyer and a grandfather. So, I am writing here in both capacities. There is no way in the world anyone is ...
January 28th, 2008 05:08 PM
I am both a lawyer and a grandfather. So, I am writing here in both capacities. There is no way in the world anyone is taking one of my grandkids while in my care. If, in fact, there is an attempted abduction of a child, I can not conceive of any criminal investigator or prosecutor deciding that we could not use deadly force as necessary to prevent the abduction.
Here is the bottom line in my opinion: Do whatever you need to do to protect your grandchildren from a predator, and again, this is me speaking as a lawyer and grandfather. And, if that worst nightmare ever actually happened, and it happened in New York, Michigan or Alabama, states where I am licensed to practice, I will defend you without fee against any charge of an unlawful use of deadly force. My line in the sand is drawn when it comes to attermpts to harm children.
"It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."
J. R. R. Tolkien
January 28th, 2008 05:08 PM
January 28th, 2008 05:10 PM
Your friends can call you paranoid, and your right make no appologies, its not your friends who call you paranoid that will be there when the SHTF, NEVER LET A LOVED ONE LEAVE WITH A FORCED ABDUCTION, your prosecutor may be an ANTI- in which case he will bring up that it is the polices duty to "recover" your loved ones, and if you believe that I dont think you would be on this site to start with, IF he/she gets out of your site with your loved ones your not likely to see them again. If he is using the child as a hostage he cant move freely, that works against him because time is actually on your side if he is standing still, the more time police have to respond the better. If he has the child hostage I would disable any vehicle he attempted to enter, and yes I would shoot a tire out from a stationary vehicle, if he gets in that car with a child as hostage him moving that car at high speed is just a much/if not more of a threat to that child than me risking collateral damage from a tire shot. If he gets to the car and is fleeing I am not taking a shot, because the risk is not worth it to me at that point, but you are much better off for thinking of what you can and can not do now than when SHTF.
Originally Posted by Rbrown777
January 28th, 2008 05:36 PM
You are not paranoid. Every day kids are kidnapped. I have 2 daughters, ages 9 and 13. I am constantly scared something will happen to them. They are the target age for most pedophiles. I try to shield them from a lot of the bad stuff that can happen in the world, but they know that there are some bad people out there that steal kids from their parents and do horrible things to them and sometimes kill them.
I lived in NY until a short time ago, and we lived in a great family neighborhood in Hyde Park, near the FDR mansion. Our chief of police lived on my block and my next door neighbor was a deputy sheriff. There were about a dozen kids in the neighborhood that all played together all the time. All the parents and retired couples looked after the kids. But I still knew where my kids were at all times. People may have called me paranoid, and several times I had to go around the block, knocking on doors, looking for my youngest, which would end up with her grounded for the rest of the day. We had a strict rule that if they moved from one place of play to another, they stopped at home first and told us. I always checked on them every 10-15 minutes no matter who they were playing with. We were the strictest parents on the block. But I got out of NY with my kids OK.
My mother and sister took my kids to Hershey Park last year. I told them that if they did, they had to watch them like I do. Which means that they are never out of my sight while in public, and I check on them all the time when I'm not. I was told I was paranoid, but it's a good thing I was. My mother told me that my oldest wanted to go into one of the stores at the park and said she'd be fine alone. My mother told her she would go with her. While my daughter was looking at earrings, oblivious to everything around her, 3 guys surrounded her. One on each side and one behind her. There was no room for her to get by them. They weren't shopping for anything other than my daughter. She was the only thing they were looking at. My mother was watching, like I told her to, and came up behind them and asked my daughter if she needed any help finding anything. The guys all ran off. I'm shaking just remembering this story.
Even here in Vermont it can happen. Back around 1980 we had two 12 year old girls kidnapped and tortured and raped. One of the girls escaped after she watched her friend die. They did things to them so horrible that I typed them out, but erased them. I can't tell you how bad these girls suffered. My sister and I went to camp with the one that survived. Even years later, she was still troubled, but a very sweet nice girl.
So no, you are not paranoid. And even if you are, who cares? As long as you tuck those kids into bed each night, however you manage it, you did a good job. Sorry for the long post, but this subject really steams me.
January 28th, 2008 08:03 PM
I am doing the same work. Retired, raising my 6 and 8 year old granddaughters. The park can be a problem. I have many times had my hand on my j-frame, in my pocket. When an alone person, male or female with no kids with them is looking a little too intently, I get worried. What would I do? You know what I would do! They can just sort it out in court. The kids come with me. PERIOD!!! Take the car, take the cash etc. not the kids. Kidnapping is a Major Felony. Feel free to charge me. No way is someone leaving with one of them. EVER!
January 28th, 2008 08:35 PM
As much as I am not a cowboy should I encounter a BG, the situation changes radically if you mess with my kids. I would empty every magazine I had into the BG and deal with the consequences later. Wilderness Tactical has this byline on their products, "Overkill never fails."
As a side note, our church was having a junior high retreat. Some of the boys were playing football. An out of bounds pass landed one kid near the woods. As he was retrieving the ball, some BG popped out and tried to grab him. Fortunately, he got away, but this was a group of older kids and lots of adults around.
Be careful out there.
Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.
January 28th, 2008 09:02 PM
I don't think I can answer your question as here in Tennessee, the state prohibits us from carrying in parks. So the place most likely to encounter a pedophile, I am legally not allowed to carry.
Tennessee is a nice place to live but it has a couple of really stupid laws. We are working to get this one changed.
January 28th, 2008 09:13 PM
This isn't advice, just my personal plan.
I'd have to be careful of my aim, but... bang, bang, bang (windshield or drivers window). If he gets by me, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang (drivers door and tires). Jump in my car, ram him off the road while on the phone to 911. If he gets away from me, I want his car to look shot up so it's easy to spot.
If he gets away with your kids, they're dead. It kinda makes everything else irrelevant to me.
Even if your kids get hit by your fire, they're still better off than being sexually tortured and executed. At least they'll have the chance for medical care.
January 28th, 2008 09:24 PM
From personal experience, a handgun isn't going to stop a car. Shooting out the tire causes a slow leak that will allow the car to drive miles. I've seen vehicles still driving at high speed on rims. Shooting at glass isn't like a TV show. One experience in our department had the 147 grain round bounce off the windshield. Even if the round goes through the glass, it changes direction radically.
You're not stopping a vehicle even if the rounds strike vital areas such as the cooling system. We have had way too many attempts to stop moving vehicles with handguns and few if any were successful. More often then not, not only was the driver struck but so was the passengers. Even a hit on the driver will still have a moving vehicle out of control. One must think about where that vehicle will be going and what it will hit.
If the child is abducted and out of reach, you are between a rock and hard place to be sure.
Richard Scalzo, Capt.
January 28th, 2008 09:37 PM
If I'm with my grandchildren...I stay close...touch one and you'll not live to discuss it with other scumbags...no compromise on this one...could care less what anyone else thinks...
Child molesters deserve every bullet they get, hopefully, many...
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
January 28th, 2008 10:04 PM
In Phoenix, a CCW holder can carry legally in city parks. I have no grandchildren, but when my kids were small and I took them to parks, I was constantly on the watch for shady characters. A single guy in the area where kids are playing would certainly get my attention, and I'd be headed that way. As said before, kidnapping is a justifiable shoot here in AZ. I'd certainly try to drop him before he reached his car.
January 28th, 2008 10:50 PM
Who said I was shooting to disable the car? I would be shooting to disable the driver through the windows and through his door and shoot at the tires when I couldn't shot the driver any more. If I have to attack the car, I'll do it with another car.
Originally Posted by rscalzo
ETA: I would actually much prefer the car out of control than under the control of someone escaping with my children.
Last edited by MountainPacker; January 28th, 2008 at 11:06 PM.
January 28th, 2008 10:58 PM
Wow...great encouragement and suggestions!
I am 53 so not really over the hill, but not as quick on my feet as in the ol days. All my martial arts training is pretty rusty too.
So, stay close & alert, trust God will empower me with what I might need.
Again, thanks for the input...very helpful!
"If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18
...if not...be prepared to meet Mr.10mm, .45, .40 or any one of their little brothers.
January 28th, 2008 11:41 PM
I've heard that the heavier bullets deflect less. Have you tested windshields with .40 or .45 caliber rounds?
Originally Posted by rscalzo
January 29th, 2008 07:00 AM
In KY you can shoot to stop a kidnapping under our Castle Doctrine.
So yes, I would get the best angle I could for a shot, but wouldn't take it if I wasn't pretty sure I could make the shot.
No matter what I say, it doesn't matter until I am in the situation. Talk is cheap when it comes to something like this.
"Nice grips, weird choice of etching" Rocky
January 29th, 2008 07:15 AM
+ one MILLION !!
Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun
Taking on that job must be a labor of love. Those two kids have the best! To be considering a scenario like this say much about your dedication to the children's safty and the attention they receive from you.
My only addition to the posts here have already been posted
- do NOT let 'em get to a car with a child
- if already in a car with the BG('s) get what info you can,
call 911, and give chase.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
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