Protecting Kids in Parks

I am a single grandpa...raising my two grandchildren, ages 7 & 8 years old alone. Normally, I am within 10 ft. (i.e. walking around in stores), well within reach and feel confidant in my position as protector.

However, as we often go to the park, which necessitates some leeway and distance for them to go out to play in the playgrounds. I am always vigilant and watching from a bench, but I have often thought...what if...some BG grabs one of them and runs to a car on the other side of the play area...out of direct reach and contact.

Am I justified in somehow attacking the vehicle-other BG-whatever?

Of course we don't want to endanger the child, but typically, the odds are and have been proven by many sad statistics, that the child lives only four hours after an abduction. So, something must be done.

Anyone aware of legalities of protecting minors in my charge? Lawyers?

I think it must be state specific. In MI, we have the Castle Doctrine which permits me to use deadly force in my defense or that of others where life or personal safety is an issue.

While I am hugely offended by sociological "zero tolerance" stuff, I cut no slack where the safety of children are at stake. I believe that the Law's highest responsibility is to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

But I would keep those kids close, pard. Child predators abound.

IANAL

RCW 9A.16.020

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(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
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RCW 9A.16.040

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(a) Affecting the permissible use of force by a person acting under the authority of RCW 9A.16.020 or 9A.16.050; or
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RCW 9A.16.050

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Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
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Edit - Emphasis added.

If it was me, I wouldn't let them get my grandkids in that car. Period.

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Originally Posted by Rbrown777

I am a single grandpa...raising my two grandchildren, ages 7 & 8 years old alone. Normally, I am within 10 ft. (i.e. walking around in stores), well within reach and feel confidant in my position as protector.

However, as we often go to the park, which necessitates some leeway and distance for them to go out to play in the playgrounds. I am always vigilant and watching from a bench, but I have often thought...what if...some BG grabs one of them and runs to a car on the other side of the play area...out of direct reach and contact.

Am I justified in somehow attacking the vehicle-other BG-whatever?

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First off, I admire you for raising your two grandchildren alone. It's not an easy job - I have a wife and it's still hard. Anyway, to you question - I'm thinking with the scenario you have described, about all you can do is get a make on the car, license plate number, and description of the BG. IANAL, but I'm thinking firing away at the moving car (which I know we would all want to do) is not the route you want to take. I would be punching in "911" as I was huffing and puffing towards the car to get the plate number. If you are able to get in your car, you might try to follow as safely as you can without endangering others - no high speed chasing.

I would think if you saw an adult heading toward your grand children you'd be moving quickly in their direction, I know I would.

I don't know how the law is articulated in your area but I do know that if my grand children are being abducted... those doing the abducting are NOT leaving with them! :image035:

I'll do whatever I can and worry about the rest after they're safe. :wink:

Noone is taking my kids. I've made the decision to take the difficult shot if necessary. Someone holding one of my kids hostage or trying to leave with them has a few choices:

1. hurt the kid and get shot
2. point the weapon at me and get shot
3. move towards the exit/try to get in a car using my kid as hostage/cover and get shot
4. let the kid go and leave alive

Not a lawyer here, but what you are describing is a kidnapping, so the BG is in the commission of a felony which clearly puts the child at risk of lethal harm. Therefore, it seems clear that lethal force in defense of the child would be legal. Every state law of which I am aware extends your right to self defense to the defense of other innocents who are in lethal danger.

That being said, you still have your normal raft of potential SD decisions---can you employ that force without endangering others? Shooting at a vehicle is almost always, in my opinion, a bad idea. What if some other snatch and grab victim is inside? What if riccochets hit an innocent bystander? What if you hit the driver and the vehicle goes out of control into other cars or pedestrians?

So, yeah, while lethal force would be a legal option here, whether it is the correct option will depend an awful lot on the specifics of the situation in which you actually find yourself.

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Originally Posted by Cupcake

Noone is taking my kids. I've made the decision to take the difficult shot if necessary. Someone holding one of my kids hostage or trying to leave with them has a few choices:

1. hurt the kid and get shot
2. point the weapon at me and get shot
3. move towards the exit/try to get in a car using my kid as hostage/cover and get shot
4. let the kid go and leave alive

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You don't have time to stop and get a law degree while you grandchild is being kidnapped. Shooting would have to be a tactical decision so as not to hurt your grandchild. Most abductions do not take place with other people around so I think this scenario is probably pretty remote, but nothing is impossible. This is a situation where I would not stand around and "be a good witness" as some think you should be. I would act aggressively to protect the children.

First off, I want to say that you are a good man for taking respondsibility in raising your 2 grandkids. I don't know the situtation but I'm sure that one day they will appreciate what you done for them.

Regardless of what the laws are, if someone tried to abduct my daughter, I'd do anything I possibly could to stop them, even if it cost me my life.

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Originally Posted by Cupcake

Noone is taking my kids. I've made the decision to take the difficult shot if necessary. Someone holding one of my kids hostage or trying to leave with them has a few choices:

1. hurt the kid and get shot
2. point the weapon at me and get shot
3. move towards the exit/try to get in a car using my kid as hostage/cover and get shot
4. let the kid go and leave alive

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I'm more inclined to CUPCAKE'S ideas.

Lots to think about here.

I belive my hypothetical posed is extremely unlikely. I have been told I'm "paranoid" many times...and don't care.

I am of the NOT ON MY WATCH school.

And of course the best situation is be very, very close and vigilant as to deter any attempts by simply being on gaurd...as I always am. I can't but help consider a possible (although very unlikely) situation before it happens, praying it never does happen.

Any more thoughts?

This will help you do your homework to protect your family, this is a great tool.

National Sex Offender Registry


Hope all can use this.

Send to all friends and family ETC.


Ben

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Originally Posted by ascendmfg

This will help you do your homework to protect your family, this is a great tool.

National Sex Offender Registry


Hope all can use this.

Send to all friends and family ETC.


Ben

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Yup...got it. I even have a listing (with pictures off website) of all offenders within one mile radius of home, school, church and parks. I keep this in center console and review often.

Now you know why my friends call me paranoid...and I still make no appologies. :secruity::spudnikcop: :sheildsmile:

I'm a single dad (widower) with two young sons, ages nine and five. Someone grabs one or both of them, I will do whatever it takes to keep them from being apprehended.

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Originally Posted by Rbrown777

Any more thoughts?

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Didn't catch your age but older folks may be just as likely or perhaps more likely target for scumbags. (not sure statistically speaking). Watch your own six while watching theirs. And BTW, a lot of things are long-shots, but preparing doesn't hurt a thing. The odds of a house burning down are farily slim, but I bet most of your friends have smoke detectors. Am I paranoid? Probably, but who does that hurt? You know who wasn't paranoid? The vast majority of the victims of violent crimes that I ran on in 6 years of EMS. Keep it real. No need to be jumpy, just awake. Keep safe.

"Anyone aware of legalities of protecting minors in my charge? Lawyers?"

As Jeff Cooper said on one occasion, "First, problem one. Then, problem two"

Problem One, of course, is protecting your family. Problem Two is exlaining to Judge Judy why what you did was necessary.

One time I was with a group of armed men around a campfire. We were not gossiping, exactly. Gossiping is women's work. We were investigating rumors. And the conversation finally got around to something like the question you posed. After the rest of us suggested possibliities, one old man said he'd "Shoot 'em right between the eyes". Someone said, "But then you'ld go to jail!" The old man responded, "I'm 76 years old. What are they going to do to me?" The moral to this story is, "Beware the wrath of old men".