This carry dichotomy :(

This is a discussion on This carry dichotomy :( within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK - nothing new here, just a rant! We talk all the time here about the problems of gun -free zones .. but as ever ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25

Thread: This carry dichotomy :(

  1. #1
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482

    This carry dichotomy :(

    OK - nothing new here, just a rant!

    We talk all the time here about the problems of gun -free zones .. but as ever it seems ''they, the decision-makers'' are incompetent and unable to differentiate between "gun in legit' hands" and "gun in BG's hands" (yeah - the latter, the guns they'll always have and carry and to heck with the law).

    It is just "the gun" - always "the gun" - the evil hunk of metal (or polymer and metal )!. Keep guns out and all is just wonderful

    These days, having to jump thru hoops to get permits means that those who carry legally are probably the most responsible citizens on this great continent. Clean record .... awareness of legal ramifications ....... choice to avoid trouble ... the list is long.

    And yet - seems we are tarred with the same old brush - "you got a gun - we regard you as a threat and dangerous". I am sick of it.

    If (heaven forbid) even as much as 1 whole % of legal CCW's commit crime or infringe the law ------- is that remaining 99% not totally describable as ''for the greater good"? Nothing is perfect but it seems that we, the good monster majority are always being slammed ... and debarred from places where no one can create total safety.

    It may seem overdone but I still totally believe that ''an armed (legally) society is a polite society" ...... and wish there were more folks who would choose to take their own responsibility for protection, and ........ be able to practice that, anywhere, anywhere at all.

    Sorry - old subject - relax!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Senior Member Array Pete Zaria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    737
    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    If (heaven forbid) even as much as 1 whole % of legal CCW's commit crime or infringe the law ------- is that remaining 99% not totally describable as ''for the greater good"?
    You hit it right there, that's the point politicians and far-left anti-gun people will never understand.

    I had a LONG debate with my girlfriend's father about gun control a few days ago. He's very liberal (I describe myself politically as a liberal, but wow, he's in another boat completely.)
    He thinks we should ban everything except lever and bolt action hunting rifles. He says anything else "allows someone to kill too many people too easily". He thinks there should be a mandatory gun recall by the government. When he told me this, instead of flipping out, I said "I see. So, how long do you think it would take to get, lets say, 75% of the guns off the street?". I got him to agree that it would take ten to twenty years to even see 75% off the street, and that's optimistic. Then I pointed out that during those ten to twenty years, the entire criminal population would be heavily armed, and most of the "good guy" population would be unarmed having turned in their guns, and the crime rate would skyrocket.
    He says it's a risk worth taking to get these "tools of death" off the street. I told him his mind would change in a heartbeat if he was ever in a life-or-death situation, and he said I might be right.
    I wonder how he likes the fact that his daughter is so well-protected.

    If people like him, and our politicians, would understand that guns in the good guy's hands are the best and ONLY effective counterbalance to guns in criminal's hands, we'd have a whole different ball game.

    Peace,
    Pete Zaria.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
    - Margaret Mead


    "Booger Hook Off the Bang Switch" - unknown

  4. #3
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    He says it's a risk worth taking to get these "tools of death" off the street
    Pete - you know and I know - all here know .... that this is p'ing in the wind. I wish it could be realized that it would take forever to disarm the crooks ... the black market has survived anything and everything -- prohibition is as ever as good an example as any.

    People need NOT fear the good guys but somehow it seems they will only look at what the bad guys do. That ''hot place'' will freeze over before BG's are gunless.

    In the meantime .... I for one want to be on equal terms, anywhere I choose!!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    1,996
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Zaria View Post
    I wonder how he likes the fact that his daughter is so well-protected.
    I'll tell you exactly how he feels about it: he's thrilled beyond all description. But to get him to admit this would be like pulling teeth.

    You know how most of the elitists think in terms of, "Well, it's okay for ME to have a gun, or for MY bodyguards to have a gun, but you? No, you're not responsible enough. I don't trust your judgment."

    Years ago, when I was dating my wife, she had a part-time job for a couple of hours in the evening at a tennis court. She basically handed out raquets and tennis balls and such through the little window. This happened to be in a slightly bad part of town, as well. Her father wasn't a liberal, per se, but he seemed to have a problem with the "gun culture" or whatever. But.... he demonstrated on more than one occasion that he got a lot of peace of mind from the fact that I would go over there and hang out with her after my workday with a .357 Magnum Ruger next to me.

    This may sound harsh, but I'm a firm believer that anyone who is anti-gun is the epitome of a hypocrite.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array fotomaker57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    1,582
    Amen Chris.
    Sometimes it feels like being a child again back in school. One person cheats on an exam and the rest of the class payees for another's indiscretion. I often wonder what it is that makes so many people think in such different terms. We all know that the statistics all point to crime rates dropping when the citizens are allowed to carry and protect them selfs. So why punish the good and protect the bad? I will never understand.
    Mike
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    Thomas Jefferson

  7. #6
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,838
    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    People need NOT fear the good guys but somehow it seems they will only look at what the bad guys do. That ''hot place'' will freeze over before BG's are gunless.
    To apply the cliché, the sheep only see the teeth, and make no distinction whether those teeth are attached to a wolf or a sheepdog. The vast majority of voters are sheep, and they quite literally would rather feel safe than be safe. I mean, if people actually cared about being safe, most of the TSA would be gone in a heartbeat!

    And yet, despite all this, concealed carry is making a comeback. Slowly, and with undue cost and regulation (the Constitution explicitly says you can't be made to pay a fee to exercise a protected right ), but a comeback nonetheless. I don't say this is an ideal state of affairs, but it is one that could be a lot worse, and it at least suggests that our side of the argument is being heard.

    So, I guess I will choose to take a 'half full' approach on the issue, at least for now.

  8. #7
    VIP Member
    Array dr_cmg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    10,808
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Zaria View Post
    He says it's a risk worth taking to get these "tools of death" off the street.
    I wonder if David Martin would agree with him? Have him ask the Brits if they agree. They've already taken the risk and continue to pay for it with their blood. He won't have to go far to ask a Brit, have him ask Chris (P95Carry).
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    clinton township
    Posts
    2,170
    I totally understand what you're saying.(that evil gun).what really irratates
    me is that you never hear about a group called the anti-knifers,
    the anti-clawhammerers,right down to a #2 pencil that in an end
    result, be used a weapon to kill someone.(just that evil gun).
    though not ccw related,every time i hear about p.e.t.a. i just
    want to puke,now thats going after those of us hunters who
    (with that evil gun) hunt down and kill poor bambi. give me
    a break. i wont go down the list why we hunt(we all know why)
    but it's more humane that the various slaughterhouses. imo
    anyway back to topic because of (that evil gun)we live in the
    greatest country in the world.
    sorry to rant myself on your post but man o man,enough is enough.
    maybe we should starta group called the anti-antis.
    (SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
    the world coming too"

    NRA LIFE MEMBER

    U.S. ARMY FT.SILL, OKLA.

  10. #9
    VIP Member
    Array kentuckycarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    kentucky
    Posts
    2,219
    I was just talking to some pretty liberal friends of mine yesterday. They live in Tn. The wife said" One smart thing Tn is doing is trying to knock down this law they're trying to pass on letting people carry guns where alcohol is served". She said "it's scarry thinking of people carrying guns when you have your kids out to eat".
    I surprised her by saying " I think it should pass" , she looked shocked and I explained why. She never thought of the fact of leaving the restaurant and going to the parking lot, especially women.
    It's always " the gun" , not the person. They never asked if I had a permit, but I'm sure by the time I was done, they assumed I did.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array MNBurl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,019
    Facts from the FBI or your states Dept of Public Safety is the only way to fight stupidity. The come alongs will actually do their own investigation on the matter with the right push. Create a page that shows the facts with links to hand out.

    In MN, a permit holder is between 1:8 to 1:10 less likely to get a DWI, murder someone, assault, rape and burglary than the general public.

    See page 203 for details...
    http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/...6PTSReport.pdf
    MNBurl

    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array lacrosse50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    SW Ohio
    Posts
    1,283
    glock27mark, sign me up! I'll be the Anti-Anti's, Cincinnati Chapter Leader!

    My experiences tend to mirror kentuckycarry's. There's no more thought involved past the visualization of a gun. Nothing about responsibility, crime rates, safety, situational awareness, precautions, possible reactions, average police response times, etc, etc. You mention gun, and the eyes glaze over.

    And while some Anti's can make decent arguments (kinda), the ones that dig in and respond to anything with "but guns can kill" are the ones that really get me fired up. And then when you counter with "cars can kill, or gold clubs can kill" it's not the same. Nope, totally different. If you get beat to death with a club, you're not as dead as if you got shot
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
    -Herbert Spencer

    NRA Life Member

  13. #12
    Member Array S3ymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Posts
    458
    I've always wondered how the anti groups can rationalize creating new laws in hope of taking away crime, when the definition of a criminal is someone who breaks or bends the laws in place. The laws are nothing more than feel good laws, and like England and Australia, anyone can look at the crime rates and see it is no good, that the gun control laws have not worked. Heck, the other day I was reading about how England is now having problems with people carrying knives everyone to protect themselves....Something about how at one of the soccer games they ended up confiscated almost 400 knives thanks to medal detectors at the gates....crazy. You would think that after all we've seen in the world, the countless wars, and crazy political leaders, that one would begin to understand that the first step to a tyrannical government and imprisonment of the people is taking the peoples ability to defend themselves. Too much power in any given direction in not a good thing, a balance must exist. It sometimes irks me that I have to have a permit to carry when the 2a states I have the right to bear arms, not mentioning how I am supposed to bear those arms....anyways, I feel much better now, thanks for letting me vent along with Chris.
    "All war is deception" --Sun Tzu
    MOΛΩN ΛABÉ

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array cmidkiff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Posts
    835
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Zaria View Post
    how long do you think it would take to get, lets say, 75% of the guns off the street?". I got him to agree that it would take ten to twenty years
    How long have we been working to get 'illegal drugs' off the street? (not to mention how much it has cost us!) Have we gotten a 75% reduction yet? Using other nations that have banned guns as an example, I would estimate that banning guns would get about 65%-75% of the legally owned guns out of their law abiding owners hands in 2-3 decades. The impact on criminal gun use would be minimal, even if we extend the time line out to a century. The genie is out of the bottle, and won't be stuffed back in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Zaria View Post
    it's a risk worth taking to get these "tools of death" off the street.
    Would it be a worthwhile goal to eliminate motor vehicles? They kill far more people than guns do, and pollute the air (true, even if you don't believe in global warming), not to mention causing us to send billions of dollars to people who are not our friends. The fact is, the benefits of motor vehicles far outweighs the costs, even though the costs are huge.

    The costs of firearms (The CDC shows 10.3 deaths per 100,000 citizens overall. A population of 301,000,000 produces a total of 31,003 deaths by shooting every year) are far less than the positive uses of firearms for defense (500,000 to 2,500,000 people defend themselves with a firearm every year, depending on who's numbers you use), not to mention hunting and sporting uses. If you include the BILLIONS of people who have died due to corrupt governments disarming and murdering their own people in the last century, the costs of denying firearms to citizens is staggering.

    By any logic I can come up with, the 'cost of firearms' is a huge net gain for our society. Why would it be 'worth the risk' to remove something that is huge overall benefit to society?
    Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.

  15. #14
    Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    491
    I like to tell people that tougher laws is how we eliminated the drug addiction problems back in the 80's, the DUI traffic fatalities back in the 90's and that's how we are going to put an end to identity theft within the next few years. (Your sarcasm meter may need to be recalibrated after that statement.)

    I do remember one statistic but can't give you the source. If anyone knows the source, please speak up. People that have concealed carry permits are less likely to commit felony crimes than law enforcement officers. No offense intended to the LEOs on this site.

  16. #15
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    Chris, I was thinking about this just this morning.

    I was reading the post about whether or not you should carry at a job interview and I started to think about companies and their "weapons policies." And I started to get really ticked off.

    Think of every major business or corporation and if you want to get into it you can bet that unless it's criminal justice, they are looking to disarm you.

    Go to college, you have to disarm. Get a job working at a school, disarm. CNN, most government jobs where you aren't carrying a gun as part of your job, flight attendant, you name it.

    Even in the military if you aren't issued your firearm for a specific duty you better not even think about carrying.

    Why is it that carrying a gun is looked at as such a distasteful and horrible thing to do?

    Even if some employers would be perfectly fine with their employees carrying they have to worry about that one employee who will freak out and sue the company for $1,000,000 for providing an "unsafe" working environment.

    I'm sick of it.

    I work in a gun shop for pete's sake and can't carry a gun.

    We fight an uphill battle with the media, corporations, our government and even our own families at times, and sometimes I'm really tired of it.

    I'm tired of looking for the "gun buster" signs when I go into any establishment. I'm tired of looking through potential employer handbooks for "weapons policies" so that I know whether or not I can expect to get fired if I'm "made." I'm tired of the propaganda and the general reaction of the look of horror when someone first finds out I carry. I'm tired of the "IS THAT A GUN?" response. I'm tired of people thinking that only uneducated hill-billies have guns. I'm even more tired of people thinking that just because I own, carry, or enjoy guns that I'm suddenly a danger.

    I've never hurt anyone in my entire life, not even the ones who deserved it. Yet, consequently, I've been the prey of some very bad people. Guess what? None of them had guns either. They were evil because the very core of their being was evil and they didn't need a gun to make them that way either.

    The closest I ever came to death was with two hands wrapped around my neck. Should we suddenly assume that everyone with a pair of hands is evil? Should we have a "hands policy" at work? Should we have "hands buster" signs on our establishments prohibiting the carry of "evil hands" in our establishments?

    It's absolutely ridiculous!

    Okay, now I'm all wound up. I'm going to go cook something!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Interesting dichotomy (sort of)
    By P95Carry in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: February 3rd, 2006, 07:53 PM