Safe or Saved - MN Churches win appeal

This is a discussion on Safe or Saved - MN Churches win appeal within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Feb 5, 2008 The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled to affirm a lower court decision that churches can ban guns from their property without following ...

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    Safe or Saved - MN Churches win appeal

    Feb 5, 2008 The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled to affirm a lower court decision that churches can ban guns from their property without following the posting requirements laid out in the law. More important to permit holders who want to protect their families while traveling to and from church, the ruling also said churches can ban guns in their parking lots. It was a victory for two churches that sued to challenge part of the permit to carry law, Edina Community Lutheran Church and Unity Church of. St Paul. The state argued that the law’s restrictions imposed only a minimal burden on the religious institutions. Instead of signs saying “EDINA COMMUNITY LUTHERAN CHURCH BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES,” the church may continue to use signs that say “Blessed are the peacemakers. Firearms are prohibited in this place of sanctuary.” It would be logical to suppose the churches will next sue the State Fire Marshall, because they don’t like the wording of the signs above the doors that say “EXIT.” Additionally, now the churches can prohibit a law abiding citizen from having certain lawful items in his car in their parking lot. Cell phones and digital cameras may be next. Stay tuned in to see if the Minnesota Attorney General decides to take the state’s appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    Feb 5, 2008 The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled to affirm a lower court decision that churches can ban guns from their property without following the posting requirements laid out in the law. More important to permit holders who want to protect their families while traveling to and from church, the ruling also said churches can ban guns in their parking lots. It was a victory for two churches that sued to challenge part of the permit to carry law, Edina Community Lutheran Church and Unity Church of. St Paul. The state argued that the law’s restrictions imposed only a minimal burden on the religious institutions. Instead of signs saying “EDINA COMMUNITY LUTHERAN CHURCH BANS GUNS IN THESE PREMISES,” the church may continue to use signs that say “Blessed are the peacemakers. Firearms are prohibited in this place of sanctuary.” It would be logical to suppose the churches will next sue the State Fire Marshall, because they don’t like the wording of the signs above the doors that say “EXIT.” Additionally, now the churches can prohibit a law abiding citizen from having certain lawful items in his car in their parking lot. Cell phones and digital cameras may be next. Stay tuned in to see if the Minnesota Attorney General decides to take the state’s appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court.
    This is going to be slightly off topic I know, but...sometimes I just can't (or refuse) to help myself. I find their signage rather ironic, particularly the part I bolded above. How exactly, do they think the peacemakers make the peace? Then they continue with the rest of the signage banning firearms inside. So they are in effect saying, "We bless the peacemakers for keeping us safe, but you're not allowed in because we prefer an unsafe environment inside.". Talk about a two-faced slap in the face.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    Feb 5, 2008 The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled to affirm a lower court decision that churches can ban guns from their property without following the posting requirements laid out in the law. More important to permit holders who want to protect their families while traveling to and from church, the ruling also said churches can ban guns in their parking lots.
    I'd be curious to know the court's reasoning for justifying the creation of a separate class of organization based upon religion? Equal protection of the laws comes into play, does it not? Implicates current practice of First Amendment law (with which I do not necessarily agree)?

    Why should a church not be required to follow the laws that everyone else must?

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    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    I am very pro-gun and pro-freedom...

    I believe any private entity such as businesses, churches, homes, etc. have a right to allow or not to allow almost anything they wish. They use their sweat and money to make it what it is, and should have the right to run it as they see fit.

    Individuals also have the right to frequent these establishments or not, as they see fit.

    In the case of the churches that don't want guns, they should have the freedom to disallow them. The church goers should also have the freedom to choose those churches or go elsewhere.

    The one thing that should not be is government telling churches or church goers what they can or cannot do (unless what they want to do infringes on a freedom)!

    Freedom for EVERYBODY! Churches AND church goers!

    Bobo
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
    ~John Adams

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    It just goes to show that "stupid" goes all the way to the bone!

    I'm glad the Pastor of our church asked me to always have a gun! Maybe the government should buy me a Sunday go to meetin' gun?
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

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    That goes to show you that they are not true to the word. Jesus said to sell your cloths and buy a sword...Luke22:36....walk in with a sword tell them Jesus said so,then see what they say...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob O View Post
    I am very pro-gun and pro-freedom...

    I believe any private entity such as businesses, churches, homes, etc. have a right to allow or not to allow almost anything they wish. They use their sweat and money to make it what it is, and should have the right to run it as they see fit.

    Individuals also have the right to frequent these establishments or not, as they see fit.

    In the case of the churches that don't want guns, they should have the freedom to disallow them. The church goers should also have the freedom to choose those churches or go elsewhere.

    The one thing that should not be is government telling churches or church goers what they can or cannot do (unless what they want to do infringes on a freedom)!

    Freedom for EVERYBODY! Churches AND church goers!

    Bobo
    I agree. But if I am reading the OP correctly, the decision was that these churches are not required to post the same signs as all other entities in the state are required to do if they wish to ban firearms from their premises. That is my question: what is the basis for the court's decision that the churches must not follow the same law in that particular as everyone else?

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    Sure they got the right to do what they want but I'm pretty sure some Muslim isn't going to take that "peacemaker" sign and pay diddily squat worth of attention to it. They will probably be first on the list for terrorist sorry to say. If their members have any sense they will be finding another church.
    Life member NRA since 1983
    I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II in a Crossbreed SuperTuck. My wife carries a Walther PPS .40 w/Crossbreed holster.

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    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DogRanger View Post
    That goes to show you that they are not true to the word. Jesus said to sell your cloths and buy a sword...Luke22:36....walk in with a sword tell them Jesus said so,then see what they say...
    Don't try to make that verse mean more that it really does. Jesus did not command believers to carry a sword, and there is no record of any of the disciples ever using one. There are records of them being beaten, and did not defend themselves, although the odds were long.
    The Lord said that two were enough. That would not have been enough to fight many. In addition he forbade Peter from using it in defense of Himself.

    It is true that the passage indicates that self defense is lawful, but it does not require a pastor or church leadership to accept guns or swords in the church.

    Local churches have every right to permit or prohibit such things. What they would say is either obey our rules or go elsewhere. That is what I would say also.

    I think it is not good judgment to prohibit CCW by certain folks, but even then I would not want just everyone with a CHL carrying and getting into a gunfight inside the church with all the people. It would be reasonable to require that those who did carry get some instruction as to when and where to use deadly force if required.
    I personally know some who go through our classes that are not accurate enough to shoot inside a church. Yes, they pass the shooting requirement but are not good enough for getting into a gunfight inside a church or crowded place.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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    Senior Member Array mocarryguy's Avatar
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    Liberal churches for liberal people. Go to a real church and leave the others to those who believe in the tooth fairy still..
    I know, I know, you are smarter than me..just ask you..

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    On the surface it may seem like a really dumb move, and, I do agree with JerryM, it doesnt show good judgement to prohibit CCW. I also think that some folks may be forgetting the principle of "turn the other cheek" Of course, most Christian churches are going to take that stance I would assume. Thing is, a church could be construed as being contradictory, "render unto ceaser.." by some of its people. As in why cant they go along with laws and allowances of the locale they are located in.

    This is one of those fine lines I suppose, I would not feel comfy being so restricted in my place of worship.

    Just my $0.02 worth

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    Don't try to make that verse mean more that it really does. Jesus did not command believers to carry a sword, and there is no record of any of the disciples ever using one. ...

    Regards,
    Jerry
    Not to get into a scriptural argument but here are 3 references to a disciple using a sword....

    MAT 26:51 ...one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it and struck the slave of the high priest cutting off his ear.....

    MAR 14:47 and JN 18:10 refer to the same incident.....

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    I figure those folks that go to this church wouldn't want to come to mine...I usually try to figure out who ISN"T carrying...different strokes for different folks I guess.

    Blessed [be] the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, [and] my fingers to fight -Psa 144:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob O View Post
    I am very pro-gun and pro-freedom...

    I believe any private entity such as businesses, churches, homes, etc. have a right to allow or not to allow almost anything they wish. They use their sweat and money to make it what it is, and should have the right to run it as they see fit.

    Individuals also have the right to frequent these establishments or not, as they see fit.

    In the case of the churches that don't want guns, they should have the freedom to disallow them. The church goers should also have the freedom to choose those churches or go elsewhere.

    The one thing that should not be is government telling churches or church goers what they can or cannot do (unless what they want to do infringes on a freedom)!

    Freedom for EVERYBODY! Churches AND church goers!

    Bobo
    I agree with this for the most part, but to ban them from the parking lot is insane. That means if you plan to stop anywhere before or after church, you have to be unarmed then too. Its just rediculous. I can't carry in a grade school , but they had the sense to say I can leave the gun in the car in their parking lot.
    Really makes ya want to go to church doesn't it..It wouldn't effect me anyway, I don't go.

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    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by franktait View Post
    Not to get into a scriptural argument but here are 3 references to a disciple using a sword....

    MAT 26:51 ...one of those with Jesus put his hand on his sword, drew it and struck the slave of the high priest cutting off his ear.....

    MAR 14:47 and JN 18:10 refer to the same incident.....
    Yes, but look at what Jesus did and said.
    Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

    He also restored the ear of the man, or there may have been 4 crosses instead of three.
    If I were to take those verses as to carrying, I would have to say not to do it.

    This incident was prior to His telling them to get a sword.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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