February 18th, 2008 09:29 PM
Need opinions on company policy
I have a job where they have a company handbook and all employees had to sign a document stating that they read and understand the contents.
Anyway, there is a section labeled Examples of conduct which may result in disciplinary action. One of the examples is "Carrying weapons or any other object for the purpose of causing harm, injury or intimidation to others". There also is the statement "The company reserves the right to exercise discretion and judgement when counselling or taking disciplinary action against an employee".
This all sounds pretty wishy washy to me. It sounds like they want to be able to fire the ones they don't want and keep the ones they do want.
What do you legal eagles think.
Oh yeah, there are no stickers or signs posted addressing guns.
February 18th, 2008 09:36 PM
my take is you arent carrying it to cause harm, injury or intimidate others you are carrying it to protect yourself.....not sure if its good but its the way i look at it
February 18th, 2008 09:38 PM
If your purpose is not "causing harm, injury or intimidation to others" then you have not engaged in the tainted and prohibited behavior. However, if you are somehow "outed" (i.e. printing, etc.) then all bets are off and you could be on the streets at worst, dependent on OK law. IIRC OK requires minimal prohibition signage, and crayon on cardboard suffices. I do not know OK employment law, or OK CHL in detail to go further than that. YMMV.
February 18th, 2008 09:39 PM
Yeah, that's the interpretation that I would like to take.
It seems too fuzzy to ever hold up but, if they decide they want to get rid of you, is it enough?
February 18th, 2008 09:51 PM
This section you posted in no way says that you as a valid CCW holder cannot carry.
The only problem with our employment policies in most states is the "right to work" clause. I'm not sure if OK is a right to work state, but I would bet it is. That means they can terminate you without cause and you can leave without cause and neither you nor your employer has the ability to stop the other. The only reason you can win a law suit for termination is when an employer fires an employee for the wrong reason. They must prove something like disparate treatment. In other words you must prove that certain groups (religion, race, etc) are treated differently by who is fired, promoted, hired, written-up.
Just let an anti-gun manager find out you are carrying at work and they may fire you for cause based on their own bias. They might write-up the termination as if you did threaten them and may even try call the police and swear-out an affidavit saying that you verbally threaten them, then showed them the gun. Now there you are on their property with a gun.
If it is the type of business where you are working always alone and no possibility of anyone knowing, then I guess you need to weight the outcomes versus the possibility of discovery.
February 19th, 2008 12:02 AM
The rules are written vaguely to allow them to do what they want. They are not your friends - they are trying to get what they want at minimum cost (in cash or trouble). So keep you nose clean or you'll be on the street.
"Carrying weapons or any other object for the purpose of causing harm, injury or intimidation to others" COULD BE "(Carrying weapons or any other object) for the purpose of causing harm, injury or intimidation to others", OR it could be "(Carrying weapons) or (any other object for the purpose of causing harm, injury or intimidation to others)". My guess based on long experience with Mr. Murphy would be that the second is more likely.
I would suggest the approach I've taken: the likelihood of harm to my family is greater if I'm out of work than the likelihood of harm to my family from a bad guy taking me out at work. Thus, I don't carry at work.
If you're brave, another approach would be to meet with the Director (or ranking person) at your facility, and ask them straight out: "Sir, I value my job and do not wish to jeopardize my position in any way. I saw something in the employee handbook and need your interpretation on it. I am legally licensed and permitted to carry a concealed weapon throughout the state, except for schools, courthouses, and private property where the owner doesn't want me to protect myself or others. How do you feel about me providing unofficial security coverage here? Does this section of the employee handbook say its bad to threaten folks but OK to carry for security use?"
Considering the Colorado church 'security team', maybe he would go for it. I may even ask my boss - years ago he was a bodyguard, and he may 'get it'. But I don't for a moment expect him to put anything in writing, and if push came to shove I wouldn't expect a person in his position to remember such a discussion - back to paragraph 1.
Frustrating, isn't it?
February 19th, 2008 12:36 AM
Translation: "Weapons are ok with us, wink, wink. If you behave nicely, carry whatever you want."
Originally Posted by roadrat52
Translation: "We're gonna use common sense... No worries!"
Originally Posted by roadrat52
I would be THRILLED to have this in my employee handbook. They have put some effort into purposely leaving the door wide open for you to carry whatever you want to. If somebody ever complains about your pocket knife, etc., they specifically reserve the right to tell them to buzz off. They're almost asking you to carry.
February 19th, 2008 12:46 AM
I think it really boils down to personal ethics and how important this job is to you. Only you can decide both! My guess is that they really don't want you carrying a gun at work. If you ask for any clarification you can no longer claim ignorance. On the other hand, you sound like an "at will" employee anyway!
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
February 19th, 2008 02:10 AM
This is the "legal" protection of the company, if they wanted to ban firearms they would come out and say it, on the otherhand if you get into an argument with someone at work especially your supervisor who may know about your liscense, he could use that against you, DONT TELL ANYONE YOU CARRY, if you have to use it accept that as a small price for your safety, sure they may get rid of you, on the other hand they could promote you, either way if no one knows and they dont have a no gun policy it will never become an issue if you never have to show. Be polite and nice people will be polite back, be a jerk and even polite people will treat you like a jerk. Just something I noticed about most people who carry, they are usually rather nice, personal example from 2 days ago, had a lady come into my store wanted to fill up with gas, I told her we had a pre pay policy, she said "would it be ok if i just waited here while my husband filled up" I told her our policy was either pay up front or leave your drivers liscense, but if she was going to be waiting in the store it was ok by me, (I didnt tell her that I spotted the bulge of a 2" revolver on her waist) she got her gas and when she was ready to pay she used an unsigned credit card, I noticed her chl when she opened her purse, wanted to say you should turn that backwards but thats not my concern, when I asked for ID she said sure and showed me her CHL which was where most DL would go in a wallet, name matched I got no further concerns. What really suprised me was how nice and polite she was the whole time, she even thanked me for asking for her ID, I thought about telling her I spotted her weapon, but then thought that would just be rude, I know I am not the ordinary ciitzen when it comes to checking for weapons and truth is had I not been checking for a weapon I would not have seen one, just one of my quirks, regardless of how nice a person is. (yeah im paranoid, but its saved me more than once) sorry about the rant just wanted to state that if you are polite you wont have problems, but if your a jerk that policy is going to eat you up, because someone will notice your weapon and file a complaint, and when they do you already know the company is going to look out for its own good, which will mean letting you go to avoid a future lawsuit.
February 19th, 2008 02:28 AM
Originally Posted by roadrat52
That says three things:
There also is the statement "The company reserves the right to exercise discretion and judgement when counselling or taking disciplinary action against an employee".
- Your company almost certainly views firearms as dangerous weapons, whose intent is to harm or intimidate others.
- Your company acknowledges its right to flexibly view the meaning of the terms "intent," "harm" and "intimidate."
- The likelihood of that "flex" bending your way is small.
Discretion and judgement is, indeed, in the eye of the beholder. Your termination from employment with them might well seem good judgement on their part, but that won't be your call. The fact that your weapons won't harm or intimidate anyone until you're violently attacked will probably be an irrelevant detail, though it will be (from your perspective) the core of the issue.
If concerned, either speak with H.R. prior to signing, or find other employment.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
February 19th, 2008 02:39 AM
judged by 12 or carried by 6.... your decision...
February 19th, 2008 04:03 AM
This can be interpreted pro or anti. It really doesn't matter how YOU percieve it. It's how THEY percieve it. It's not real clear either way. One person will read it one way, someone else another. It's wide open. I'd say it sounds more " Don't ask don't tell". But like others said, It can be used against you if they want to. If they want to fire you, they'll find a way, it does'nt have to be the fact that you carried.
If you really value this job, maybe work there a while and see how ya feel. test the waters. If you carry, I'd do a real good concealment job and tell NO ONE.. Maybe a 380 ??
February 19th, 2008 11:49 AM
if i saw that in my employee handbook, i would be jumping up and down with glee. looks to me that you can carry at work.
i would however, be very careful about it. carry deep.
edit: with any work situation, unless you have talked about it with your boss, if you are carrying, nobody, NOBODY better know anything about it
Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
(Murder begins where self-defense ends)
February 19th, 2008 05:51 PM
Sounds like they want to cover theirselves which makes good legal sense.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
February 19th, 2008 09:01 PM
This is kinda what I'm thinking about the policy.
Originally Posted by kentuckycarry
I do appreciate all of the other interpretations though.
I've worked here awhile and feel like I am liked and viewed as an asset so, they won't be looking for a reason to can me.
A deeply concealed Kel-Tec P3AT will never be seen so, there is really no issue UNLESS I have to use it and then it won't really matter.
Actually, I know of one other man that carries at work and he also believes that the policy is fuzzy enough to maybe claim ignorance if the need arises.
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