Another PA question

Another PA question

This is a discussion on Another PA question within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm going to be travelling on a group trip by bus to Philly's Convention facility to attend the annual Philadelphia Flower Show (yeah, I know, ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array wlynn's Avatar
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    Another PA question

    I'm going to be travelling on a group trip by bus to Philly's Convention facility to attend the annual Philadelphia Flower Show (yeah, I know, but I just chalk it up to spousal abuse, so suffer with me here).
    Is there anything I should be aware of at the convention center? Do I need to leave the 9 on the bus, which doesn't make me comfortable? Is there some strange law about tour group trips that prevent me from CC?


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array walvord's Avatar
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    I'd just ask her if I could give her $500.00 for her trip to spend any way she wants and I'd stay home. But seriously, I'm thinking that if it's Greyhound or Trailways or anything else that is chartered, you're not going to be able to carry. They wouldn't want the liability and anyway, would probably scare the "flower" sheep if found out. I'd bet there are signs at the conventioin center too. I don't think Philly is too gun friendly.
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  3. #3
    Member Array 500Mag's Avatar
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    By law the Convention Center isn't off limits, however, I'm not sure about their "policy" as I haven't been there in a few years now. May want to check their website for more info.
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  4. #4
    Member Array wlynn's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Went to convention center site, and sure enough, under safety and security, it does say firearms are prohibited. Hate to stay the night in the hotel without the 9. Guess I'll have to keep my CRKT-m-16 handy.
    Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see what bus company the group is using. And remember, there (at the flower show) but for the grace...etc.
    s i g h.

  5. #5
    Member Array XD9mm's Avatar
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    Is there security at the convention center? I can hardly believe anyone will be there frisking the florists as they enter the door. If it was me and I had something that I knew I could 100% conceal at all times I would probably go that route. Possibly ankle carry, smartcarry or even that shoulder harness that is being discussed in the holster section. Also, no weapons is only the policy of the convention center right? The worst that could happen if they somehow found out you were carrying would be to ask you leave. If I have been reading correctly about similar situation that is about it. I also understand that if this happened you would be in deep trouble with your wife for ruining the day but I guess you'll have to weight your options.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; February 21st, 2008 at 12:33 AM. Reason: Deleted a language workaround.

  6. #6
    New Member Array Crazy8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wlynn View Post
    Went to convention center site, and sure enough, under safety and security, it does say firearms are prohibited. Hate to stay the night in the hotel without the 9. Guess I'll have to keep my CRKT-m-16 handy.
    Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see what bus company the group is using. And remember, there (at the flower show) but for the grace...etc.
    s i g h.
    Who controls the Convention center?

    If firearms are "prohibited" by their "rules", that does not mean it is illegal. All they can do is ask you to leave if for some reason (like you were open carrying) it became evident that you were armed.

    So, it may be a rule, but it is not law. See the PA UFA (Uniform firearms Act):
    6120. Limitation on the Regulation of Firearms and Ammunition.

    (a) General rule. No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth.

    (a. l) No right of action.

    (1) No political subdivision may bring or maintain an action at law or in equity against any firearms or ammunition manufacturer, trade association or dealer for damages, abatement, injunctive relief or any other relief or remedy resulting from or relating to either the lawful design or manufacture of firearms or ammunition or the lawful marketing or sale of firearms or ammunition to the public.

    (2) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit a political subdivision from bringing or maintaining an action against a firearms or ammunition manufacturer or dealer for breach of contract or warranty as to firearms or ammunition purchased by the political subdivision.

    (b) Definitions.-As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

    "Dealer." The term shall include any person engaged in the business of selling at wholesale or retail a firearm or ammunition.

    "Firearms." This term shall have the meaning given to it in section 5515 (relating to prohibiting of paramilitary training) but shall not include air rifles as that term is defined in section 6304 (relating to sale and use of air rifles).

    "Political subdivision." The term shall include any home rule charter municipality, county, city, borough, incorporated town, township or school district.

    (Chgd. by 1.1999, Act 59(7), eff.12/15/99.)
    If you have a PA LTCF (license to carry firearms) then you can lawfully carry anywhere the State or Federal Government has not prohibited it.

    Personally, unless there were metal detectors awaiting me at the door, I would carry concealed with my LTCF in my wallet.

  7. #7
    Member Array glock19xdsc's Avatar
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    The CRKT is illegal in Philly, I'm sorry to say.

    Philly prohibits:
    "Any knife or other cutting instrument which can be used as a weapon"

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife.pdf

    I don't think they have metal detectors at the CC, but can't say for sure. I walk through that area every day on my way to work and would check it out for you, but I'm off until the end of next week due to recent surgery and won't be going in until then.

    Edited to add: I'll look, since it doesn't start until 3/2, and will post a follow-up if I don't forget. :)

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glock19xdsc View Post
    The CRKT is illegal in Philly, I'm sorry to say.

    Philly prohibits:
    "Any knife or other cutting instrument which can be used as a weapon"

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife.pdf

    I don't think they have metal detectors at the CC, but can't say for sure. I walk through that area every day on my way to work and would check it out for you, but I'm off until the end of next week due to recent surgery and won't be going in until then.

    Edited to add: I'll look, since it doesn't start until 3/2, and will post a follow-up if I don't forget. :)
    Hmmmmmmm......

    This must be a local ordinance since the CRKT folder is not illegal under The PA crimes code.
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Ridgeline's Avatar
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    I'm with Walvord, give her the Amex card, and make your way to the nearest gun show yourself. I would NEVER leave it on any buy, unless it was my own landyacht. And as others have said I too would find a way to carry it regardless, that's why it's called concealed carry.
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  10. #10
    Member Array franktait's Avatar
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    Convention Center

    I do a couple of programs a year at the convention center. I CC there every time and have never had an issue. No metal detectors. I haven't done the flower show in a couple years - but was just at the Convention center in Oct for an event. CC'd with no issues...

  11. #11
    Member Array glock19xdsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knuckledrager View Post
    Hmmmmmmm......

    This must be a local ordinance since the CRKT folder is not illegal under The PA crimes code.
    That's correct.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    That seems a little too broad. I would think that there is some language in there about intent or "while engaged in criminal activity". Otherwise, Philly would be emulating the TSAs prohibition. I don't think that is practical. I have checked with a couple of PPD guys that I know and they have not heard of it. Where did you find this?
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knuckledrager View Post
    This must be a local ordinance since the CRKT folder is not illegal under The PA crimes code.
    It is a city ordinance. Since state pre-emption only covers firearm laws, the city is allowed its usual fascist restrictions on knives.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    I frequent the city and almost always have a Strider SMF clipped to my pocket. Not sweating it in the least. Where is the statute so that I can read it?
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

  15. #15
    New Member Array Crazy8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knuckledrager View Post
    I frequent the city and almost always have a Strider SMF clipped to my pocket. Not sweating it in the least. Where is the statute so that I can read it?
    Here you go:
    Philadelphia, PA (LN)

    10-810. Weapons and Dangerous Devices.

    1. Discharging Firearms.[157] No person shall fire or discharge recklessly and without reasonable cause any rifle, gun, pistol, or other firearm.
    2. Water Pistols, Electric Canes, and Miniature Cannon.[158]
    1. No one shall sell or offer for sale water pistols, electric canes, miniature cannon, or similar articles.[159]
    2. No one shall use water pistols, electric canes, miniature cannon or similar articles in any street or public place.
    3. Spring Guns, Air Guns and Bows and Arrows.[160]
    1. No person shall sell, offer for sale at retail, or use, or possess with intent to use, any air gun, spring gun, or any implement not a firearm which forcefully impels a pellet of any kind.
    2. No person shall sell, or offer for sale, at retail, any bow and arrow, to any person under the age of twenty-one (21) years unless the seller first obtains written evidence of parental consent to the proposed purchase by the minor.[161]
    4. Switchblade Knives.[162] No person shall sell, offer for sale or carry any knife with a blade which is released by a spring mechanism including knives known as "switchblades."
    5. Incendiary Paper. No person shall manufacture, sell, offer for sale, carry or store any incendiary paper that has been chemically treated to vanish at the touch of a flame, including paper known as "flash paper."[163]
    6. Penalties. Whoever violates any provision of this Section or Section 10-821 shall, in addition to other penalties provided, forfeit the weapon, contraband, or dangerous device giving rise to the violation of such section.[164]
    7. Confiscation. Police officers shall seize and deliver into departmental custody any air gun, air pistol, spring gun, switch blade knife, incendiary paper, contraband weapons, accessories and/or ammunition or other implement which shall be used, discharged, possessed, offered for sale or carried in violation of Section 10-810 or Section 10-821.[165]

    10-811. Penalties.

    1. Unless otherwise provided, the penalty for violation of any Section of this Chapter is a fine of no less than one hundred fifty ($150) dollars nor more than three hundred ($300) dollars or imprisonment not exceeding ninety (90) days or both.[166]

    10-820. Cutting Weapons in Public Places. [179]

    1. Definition.
    Cutting Weapon. Any knife or other cutting instrument which can be used as a weapon that has a cutting edge similar to that of a knife. No tool or instrument commonly or ordinarily used in a trade, profession or calling shall be considered a cutting weapon while actually being used in the active exercise of that trade, profession or calling.
    2. Prohibited Conduct. No person shall use or possess any cutting weapon upon the public streets or upon any public property at any time.
    3. Penalty. The penalty for violation of this section shall be a fine of not less than three hundred (300) dollars and imprisonment of not less than ninety days.

    10-822. Carrying of Weapons in or on Public and Private Buildings. [181]

    1. Definition.
    Weapon. Any firearm as defined in Bill No. 2690, approved August 17, 1967 (1967 Ordinances, Page 896), and any other weapon as defined in Bill No. 544, approved August 26, 1968 (1968 Ordinances, Page 906).[note: this is the cutting weapon definition above]
    2. Prohibited Conduct. No person shall possess any weapon in any educational institutions except:
    1. private security guards;
    2. City, State or Federal law enforcement officers;
    3. State or Federal military forces on active duty;
    4. members of any reserve officers training corps, color guards and drill or rifle teams, when engaged in lawful organizational activities;
    5. any person authorized by law enforcement agencies to possess weapons.
    3. Penalty. The penalty for violation of this section shall be a fine of not more than three hundred (300) dollars or imprisonment of not more than ninety (90) days, or both
    Nice, eh? Philadelphia is the only "city in the first class" in PA, so it is the only place where open carry requires a LTCF (I never open carry but thought it worth mentioning). Philly has tried to override the State Preemption Law several times in order to ban firearms - unsuccessfully thus far. They have "compensated" for their legal losses by this ridiculous set of statutes.

    I thought it interesting that if you posses a PA LTCF then you can go to the pokie for 90 days for carrying a swiss army knife or Leatherman tool but you can carry a firearm in a school. [sarcasm]Now THAT'S good government[/sarcasm]

    and no... I am not indicating that we should not be able to legally carry in a school if licensed, I just added that to contrast the knife law.

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