Panel approves immunity for 'defensive display' of firearms

This is a discussion on Panel approves immunity for 'defensive display' of firearms within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Panel approves immunity for 'defensive display' of firearms By HOWARD FISCHER Capitol Media Services Friday, February 22, 2008 PHOENIX -- A House panel voted Thursday ...

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Thread: Panel approves immunity for 'defensive display' of firearms

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    Senior Member Array flagflyfish's Avatar
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    Panel approves immunity for 'defensive display' of firearms

    Panel approves immunity for 'defensive display' of firearms


    By HOWARD FISCHER
    Capitol Media Services
    Friday, February 22, 2008


    PHOENIX -- A House panel voted Thursday to let people pull out their guns without fear of winding up in jail -- if they believe they are in danger.

    HB 2629 essentially would provide immunity from prosecution for anyone engaged in "defensive display" of a firearm. That ranges from telling another person you are armed to showing off the weapon as well as actually holding the gun -- as long as it is not pointed directly at another person. The 5-4 vote came despite questions by several legislators of whether that language would provide a legal defense for gang members caught waving around their weapons as they could say they were in fear that others from a rival gang had threatened them.

    And Bob Ticer, a lieutenant with the state Department of Public Safety, said he feared this kind of law could escalate a simple dispute into an outright gun battle.

    But Rep. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, sponsor of the measure, dismissed these concerns as unrealistic.

    Pearce told members of the House Judiciary Committee that sometimes people get intimidated. He said this measure ensures that they can pull out a gun to show whoever is making the threats that they are armed.

    The legislation says the display of a firearm is justified "to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.''

    Pearce said sometimes police officers "sometimes have not used the discretion or the good sense the Lord gave them."

    "Some folks are capable of taking care of themselves and other folks are frightened or intimidated very easily," Pearce said.

    He said allowing individuals should be able to "express their fear in a proper manner.''

    Ticer said all of that ignores the real problem in Arizona of "road rage,'' as motorists who believe they have been wronged in one way or another decide to display a gun.

    "When that happens, dangerous things happen, such as shootings, people are killed, car crashes occur,'' he said. "People get scared when guns come out.''

    But John Wentling of the Arizona Citizens Defense League said that looks at the situation from only one perspective.

    He cited an incident where some "gang bangers'' were trying to run an elderly man off a highway.

    "All he did is place his gun up on the dashboard as a message: Leave me alone, I'm armed,'' Wentling said. He said someone apparently called DPS and the person was charged with aggravated assault.

    Rep. Tom Chabin, D-Flagstaff, said he fears the language in the bill easily could apply to a fight between two gangs, where one group is armed and the other pulls out its own guns. He questioned whether the measure could end up "escalating a bad situation into something worse.''

    Pearce, however, said the immunity would be lost by anyone who points a weapon at someone else, discharges the gun at anyone else or "intentionally provokes'' someone. "This would simply protect an honest citizen who is threatened and feels it's necessary to show that they have the ability to defend themselves so they're not left alone,'' he said.

    But Rep. Steve Gallardo, D-Phoenix, said he believes the legislation will only lead to more shootings.

    "Whatever happened to running?'' he asked. "If somebody came after me with a bat, I could tell you it would be the fastest run I would ever do.''

    And Gallardo said the legislation could create problems even if a person chose not to flee.

    "We are escalating what could normally just be a fistfight into gun shooting,'' he said.

    The measure now goes to the full House.

    I couldn't believe that this was printed in our liberal newspaper, I can see the good in the whole bill, but the bad as well...
    "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier
    and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the
    service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the
    love and thanks of man and woman."

    -- Thomas Paine (The American Crisis, No. 1, 19 December 1776)

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  3. #2
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    But Rep. Steve Gallardo, D-Phoenix, said he believes the legislation will only lead to more shootings.

    "Whatever happened to running?'' he asked. "If somebody came after me with a bat, I could tell you it would be the fastest run I would ever do.''
    Presentation of one's firearm and actually firing are two distinct states! Presentation does not (IMO) in any way predicate discharge ....... it is simply saying - "I am armed - mess with me further and you could get hurt"

    Running? Sure that is a great option, if in fact distance from the threat can be successfully achieved. These folks who make such comments are I reckon part of the pre-ccw ''rivers of blood'' fraternity. They have little or no feel for reality.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flagflyfish View Post
    "We are escalating what could normally just be a fistfight into gun shooting,'' he said.
    This doesn't make any sense at all... if you are legally carrying a gun, would you start a fist fight? NO! Why is he bringing up 'gang members'? Either they are legally in possession of the gun or they are not. What does road rage have to do with anything? I'm having trouble wading through all the BS.

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    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Liberal Rep Gallardo is famous for standing up for the "downtrodden undocumented workers" (read illegals) who are turning this area into another Tijuana. It's his community that would suffer most if honest people actually defended themselves.
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Glad to hear you guys got this on the way.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Member Array jackdog's Avatar
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    Hip deep in the this BS, it makes no sense, more dumb comments fron oh guns are evil crowd.
    Jack dog

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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Run away? Tell that to someone with asthma or a leg injury. Jerks.

    This is unusual. I'm glad to see it but I have mixed feelings about it the possible abuses. I like that I'm protected like that, however that is usually something afforded to a resident when they call the PD and explain what happened.

    So here's a question, though: How does this interact with the law on brandishing? Obviously 'provocation' with a firearm is still illegal, but I was just curious if there was something else I didn't see or think of?
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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Maybe when guns are drawn, the BGs should only see this:
    Attached Images
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    So here's a question, though: How does this interact with the law on brandishing? Obviously 'provocation' with a firearm is still illegal, but I was just curious if there was something else I didn't see or think of?

    What it basically allows is for the presentation of a gun to be a threat of force, instead of lethal force. i.e. there are situations where force is justified, but lethal force is not justified. Presenting a gun in a case where less than lethal force is justified counts only as a threat of force. If the use of force is not justified, then brandishing would apply. It basically means if you are justified in using force, you can point a gun at him.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    But Rep. Steve Gallardo, D-Phoenix, said he believes the legislation will only lead to more shootings.

    "Whatever happened to running?'' he asked. "If somebody came after me with a bat, I could tell you it would be the fastest run I would ever do.''
    A little insight on Mr. Steve Gallardo House Rep District 13 (bio and pic here). Mr. Gallardo, young and single. Based on his comments above about running faster than the BG, if he had a family (i.e. wife and kids) I guess he would just have to run faster than them.

    To prove a point about the idiocy of his statement, take a look at his fellow District 13 Representative Martha Garcia. No offense to Martha, but I don't think she could run very fast from anything.

    Thanks for the advice about running Mr. Gallardo, it sums up your character quite nicely.
    [/quote]



    Rep. Tom Chabin, D-Flagstaff, said he fears the language in the bill easily could apply to a fight between two gangs, where one group is armed and the other pulls out its own guns. He questioned whether the measure could end up "escalating a bad situation into something worse.''
    Tom (pics and bio here), I seriously doubt you even know what a Gang-banger is, having spent the majority of your life in Kansas. Your agent told you to say that didnít she? Come on, admit it. Nice hair by the way.

    But maybe I've been a little harsh on Tom. let's take a look at a couple of the many, many achievements since joining the legislature just a short time ago. Tom has co-authored/co-sponsored some of the greats in AZ legislation. Here are just a couple of samples:

    HB2387 Aid in Dying Bill Ė Tom doesnít think you should be able to protect yourself in dangerous situations but heís all for allowing you to legally off yourself if you feel like itís just to painful to go on. Save the hassle on that bill, Tom. By not supporting defensive rights laws you just may get the job done sooner, even for those of us who donít want to leave the show early.
    HB2746 Death Sentences Moratorium Ė Another great, by Rep Chabin. Thanks again Tom! Who the heck needs deterrents to crime like capital punishment? You really want us dead donít you? But at least your hair still looks great!

    Ah, yes, Steve Gallardo and Tom Chabin. Two of Arizona's finest!
    The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. 'Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?' 'No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle.'

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    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Back when everyone carried a gun on there hip it was a given, that the person your trying to insert (rob, mug, beat, kill), may and would defend him/herself.

    Today with CCL the BG does not know youíre armed. And in my opinion this new law in Arizona gives a CCL holder more options, and could actually save lives.

    I wish Florida would pass that law.

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    Member Array mustang00066's Avatar
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    I'm in Utah, does anyone know the law regarding this here? I would guess it would be the same because utah's laws seem to be pro 2nd amendment (at least in regards to some other states) but better to be safe and actually know than to just assume.

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flagflyfish View Post
    And Bob Ticer, a lieutenant with the state Department of Public Safety, said he feared this kind of law could escalate a simple dispute into an outright gun battle.

    But Rep. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, sponsor of the measure, dismissed these concerns as unrealistic.

    "Whatever happened to running?'' he asked. "If somebody came after me with a bat, I could tell you it would be the fastest run I would ever do.''

    B]
    Spitting on the sidewalk these days can escalate into gun play it seems. This is a stupid argument.


    Whatever happened to putting bad guys in their place instead of running like a coward when faced with this kind of attack? I'm tired of teaching everyone the first thing you must do is run in fear.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flagflyfish View Post
    "Whatever happened to running?'' he asked. "If somebody came after me with a bat, I could tell you it would be the fastest run I would ever do.''
    Whatever happened to standing up for yourself?

    Whatever happened to doing the right thing?

    Whatever happened to confronting evil and saying, "Not here. Not now. Not on my watch."?

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    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerneyG View Post
    Glad to hear you guys got this on the way.
    Yes, it is so simple. Texas has had the equivalent statute for some time.

    PC ß9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

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