February 29th, 2008 10:23 PM
Permit holders and crime ( or not )
I read the following in an article stating that a permit holder is 300 times less likely to commit a crime than anyone else. I always heard 6 times less likely. That's quite a difference. Anyone got any other info on this? I'd like some solid ammo to throw at the anti's when needed.
Permit holders are not angels, but they are an unusually law-abiding collection of citizens. In Florida, for example, permit holders are about 300 times less likely to perpetrate a gun crime than Floridians without permits. Florida's experience has been copied nationwide
Maybe the 6 times I heard is for crime in general .This does say "gun crime".
Last edited by kentuckycarry; February 29th, 2008 at 10:25 PM.
Reason: Meant to say something else
March 1st, 2008 07:20 AM
Do you have a link to that article. I'd like to respond to that news/trash paper.
March 1st, 2008 08:17 AM
Strange, isn't it, that such a crucial factor is omitted in most all reporting of the distinction? The statistics aren't often tracked that way. At least, they're not reported that way in most every study made public.
What should be clearly stated is: # total crimes using a firearm; % of criminals found to be illegally carrying a firearm during that crime; and % of criminals found to be legally carrying a firearm during that crime. Showing, for example, X number of crimes, with Y% being criminals not legally carrying and Z% being criminals who were legally carring. That would make it clear. It should be a simple fact about the offender demographics, one that should easily be used as a filter during any statistical analysis. I have my own opinions about why it isn't made clear, as a matter of course, but that's a different question.
In ~20mins of hunting for several different states and agencies, I could find no examples filtering the data in this way.
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March 1st, 2008 11:29 AM
I have read that permit holders commit a smaller number of gun or violence type crimes than LEOs. As I read the paper and watch TV I believe that to be clearly true.
March 1st, 2008 11:48 AM
Don't have the link. I found it while researching and just copied and pasted.
Originally Posted by tns0038
March 1st, 2008 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by kentuckycarry
March 1st, 2008 12:03 PM
Whoa... careful there. What you see on the news is there because its newsworthy. Everybody like a juicy story about an LEO that has done wrong, but nobody cares so much when its Joe Citizen.
Originally Posted by JerryM
Remember, the newspaper is in the business of selling newspapers, not to inform you of anything in particular.
March 1st, 2008 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by SIXTO
I am referring to CHL holders and not the general public. I believe it is true that there are less violent crimes (percentage) committed by CHL holders than LEOs.
I fairly often see even in my local paper LEOs who have beat their wives, or tried to seduce a Speeder, and the evidence holds up in court. I also think that anything that is done by a gun owner, and especially a CHL holder would be as juicy to the papers as an LEO.
I am not anti-LE as I have several good friends who are such, but overall I almost have never seen reports of CHL holders which match.
I may be incorrect, but I think I saw that statement regarding the percentages from one of the recognized pro-gun writers.
I would honestly like to see any statistics, but doubt that they are readily available.
March 1st, 2008 12:35 PM
I dont know or remember the exact numbers, but they are very very low here in Arkansas.
Several months ago I saw some statistics put out by the AR State Police as to the number of permits revoked and it was almost insignifigant as to the numbers of permits issued, it was way less than 1 percent. IRRC, the permits that were revoked didnt even really deal with crime, but rather violation of conditions such as carrying a gun while drunk, and such. At that time, there were a total of 2 shoots that were ruled unjustified and the shooter lost his permit and went to jail.
Looking at the numbers, it would appear that the permit holders are a very law abiding group, and if you compare it to all other groups, I'm sure that are the bottom of the scale for illegal activities.
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March 1st, 2008 07:50 PM
I ran some numbers from I think 2004 crime reports for FL (I think from FDLE...can't recall right now and too lazy to look again), and the firearm related crimes committed by permit holders was a small fraction of ONE percent.
March 1st, 2008 07:57 PM
I think the reason that permit holders are less likely to commit a crime is that they live in fear....
of losing their permits.
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March 2nd, 2008 12:44 AM
1943 - 2009
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Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
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March 7th, 2008 10:16 AM
I think pulling a gun on someone when not warranted may be more the case of "fear of loosing ones permit". I've only carried for 18 months, I'm 50 yrs old and I have a clean record.
Originally Posted by exactlymypoint
March 7th, 2008 10:17 AM
I think this was .02%.
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
March 7th, 2008 11:16 AM
This is a nice writeup from WisconsinConcealedCarry.com:
"Over 3,700 CCW permit holders have been arrested for crimes including murder in Texas."
This argument is the result of a study by the Violence Policy Center
released, perhaps not coincidentally, prior to the 2000 presidential election. The VPC is a gun control advocacy group that releases dozens of studies annually.
In this instance, the VPCís numbers are correct. However, the group did not break out the data provided by the Texas Department of Public Safety into violent vs. nonviolent crimes. Most importantly, the VPC did not compare the departmentís data to the public at large.
There are 217,000 CCW permit holders in Texas. This figure gives us our control population for permit holders in that state for the period 1996 to 2000.
The VPC study asserts that the licensees were arrested for violent crimes at a rate of 194 per 100,000 population, but did not mention that the rate for the rest of the public for those same crimes is 730 per 100,000. Nor did the VPC mention that 55% of those licensees arrested were later cleared of the charges.
Let's look at the VPC's numbers for non-violent crimes, which constitute the majority of the arrests. They report an arrest rate for Texas licensees of 639 per 100,000, but ignore the rate of 5,212 per 100,000 for the general public. Included in the VPC offenses are crimes such as marijuana possession, drunken driving, credit card abuse, and even hunting with an artificial light.
But it is the murder arrest suggestion that is the most serious. If a person kills another, even in self-defense, that person is going to be arrested for murder. Police officers do not have the power to dismiss charges. This is the job of the district attorney, who can decline to press charges, convene a grand jury, or go to trial.
From 1996 to 2000, 27 Texas permit holders were arrested for murder. Of these, 8 had the charges immediately dismissed. The remaining 19 went to jury trial, where 16 were found to have acted in self-defense. Three were convicted, which gives us a homicide
rate of .35 per 100,000 permit holders annually. Compare this to homicide rate for the general public of 5.5 per 100,000.
Florida also provides detailed data on permit holders. From 10/1/87 through 9/30/01, Florida issued 780,840 CCW permits. During that period, only 1,396 permits were revoked for crimes committed after licensure. As of 1996, the Florida Secretary of Stateís office reported that only five permit revocations were the result of a conviction for a violent crime.
A group as large as the permit-carrying population is bound to have a few miscreants in its midst. That is simple human nature. However, data from every shall-issue state shows that permit holders are overwhelmingly more law-abiding than the average citizen.
The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.
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