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Tangle - to clerify I personally think it would be better to open carry.
One way I think of it is like this...The BG wants an easy target, with concealed he has to guess who or who isn't carrying (in places like DC there is no guessing, but i digress), with open carry, he'll likely just move on to his next target, which is not me. Why pick on someone that might fight back?
Repeated questioning would bring out the holes in their story, and then you get to sue them for filing false charges, Harassment, verbal assault, Defamation of character, and any thing else you lawyer can think of.
That's what I'd hope Sheldon but - just never quite sure.!
In Idaho, there have to be at least two willing to sign a complaint. They're going to look askance in most cases at a husband + wife complaint unless they've got it coming for you.
That said, unless you were menacing in some manner, open carry has caused no problems here locally.
In MN it's legal to carry open or concealed. The permit says on or about your person or clothes. When I’m in the woods I carry openly. What I carry in the woods would be very difficult to conceal anyway. And who cares if the bears freak out when they see it. They’re not going to shudder and cover their cubs eyes. They’re not going to hire Darth Attorney to strip me of my rights and tie me up in court challenges. They’re not going to foment the liberal news media into an hoplophobic lather. They’re not going to get the drop on me and disarm me before raping and killing me with my own openly carried weapon. Defensive handgun carry in today’s urban society solves a different set of problems. Why give up the advantage of surprise just because its legal?
In the 1700's and 1800's, it was seen as unmanly, even cowardly, to carry concealed. Today's urban womenfolk and children haven't had to hide from savage attacks that bound the menfolk into a brotherhood of common defense. Our nanny state has made them feel victimized and alone. Now open carry doesn't give our neighbors a warm feeling of security that it used to, that it should.
P95, to get back to your original question, you mentioned open carry. While we may all opine wistfully about the way it use to be, the way it should be and the way (hopefully) it one day will be, most of us need to accept that things are the way they are and - like it or not - we must deal with the current system of laws in our country and be thankful we don't live in Great Britain or Australia.
It seems the key operative words in this discussion are "open carry". It may be a nuisance to some of us, but it would seem the easiest way to avoid most problems is to simply not carry a gun exposed to public view. If someone can't see your gun, then they have no reason to make a complaint. Also, if it's properly concealed and someone does file a complaint, they either have no grounds or it can be pointed out that since they are complaining about a weapon nobody could reasonably see, how did they know you are carrying in the first place? If I'm in the woods hunting or sitting on my porch cleaning my guns, there should be no reason to expect anyone, the police included, to become upset over seeing a gun. If they do say something, then you have a reasonable explanation that should satisfy anyone, especially if you are on your own or a friends private property. When I'm out and about in public, I make sure my weapon is not visible. I and my wife have concealed carry permits and when we carry, it is concealed. If we should happen to expose a weapon, it will be under unusual circumstances such as an accidental fall or some other unforeseen situation beyond normal control. I think under those circumstances, you will probably be forgiven for exposing your weapon.
Personally, I prefer concealed carry vs. open carry in personal defense situations. While there are those proponents who say open carry is a deterrent to being attacked, I'm of the group that feels it makes you a PRIME TARGET instead. While the sight of a gun may discourage a drunk or tough who's looking for a fight, it may also encourage a thief or someone who would normally not shoot first to decide that it's smarter to take you out before you have a chance to draw your weapon. To me, the sight of an exposed weapon is an invitation to become the first target of choice. If my gun is not visible, it may cause the BG to think of me as less of a threat, giving me time to retrieve my weapon at the first opportune moment. There is something to be said for the element of surprise and I can think of nothing more surprising to a BG who thinks he's found an easy mark than to suddenly, and unexpectedly, find himself staring into the barrel of a 45!
Anyway, to carry openly or concealed is not a matter of discussion for many of us since the laws of each state vary. While you may be able to carry openly in some states, you can't in others. There are still a few out there where you can't even carry concealed. What we need is a national right to carry law that covers all 50 states, thereby eliminating the confusion we now encounter when going from state to state or even city to city.
Great post ra.
I have been known to walk out to get my mail or run down to the laundry room in my garage carrying open. I have the advantage that all my neighbors know me and have seen me walk out in uniform on my way to work. Half of them have asked if it was ok that they told their children to go to my apt. in case of trouble. Being the idealistic Paladin that I am I told them of course.
But back to what 'can' happen.
Some years ago when I still lived in PDRK, LA to be exact. some friends owned a house and the house sat on the front of the property. Down the side of the house is a long driveway with the garage sort of in the backyard. The driveway is separated from the neighbors by a tall hedge.
My friend had a ten-year-old son for whom he had bought a Daisy Red Rider BB Gun for his birthday. They sat up a redwood picnic bench in the back of the garage and put dixie cups on it for targets.
They had been enjoying themselves for about 15 minutes when the driveway became filled with a SWAT Team. The team cuffed my friend and his son at gun-point then infiltrated the house and brought the wife and 8 year old daughter out of the house at gun-point and laid them cuffed in the middle of the front yard.
All of this because some nosy neighbor call the police and just told them a man was holding a rifle in his driveway and had a small boy with him.
THAT was when I decided to move to Nevada, USA
I am not a lawyer nor do I play one one on the 'net...
It was explained to me in my recent CCW class that in Florida, yu were not allowed to openly carry or display a weapon even in between the car and the house. We were told of a permit holder that was seen removing his gun and placing it under the truck seat before entering a shopping mall. The individual was ticketed for brandishing. It just seems simpler to me to keep the weapon concealed and avoid the idiocy that (whether we like it or agree with it) exists in the current reality we have to deal with.
Remember, your laws cannot and will not apply in all if not most jurisdictions.Quote:
It just seems simpler to me to keep the weapon concealed and avoid the idiocy that (whether we like it or agree with it) exists in the current reality we have to deal with.
That said, I avoid 911 calls these days unless shots have been fired. My local PD assumes the guy with the gun is the bad guy, and well, quite frankly, I'll take my chances that the person who threatens actually calls.
Why was he removing his gun before going into the mall? It is not against Florida law that says you have to remove your gun when going into a mall.
Second, in order for you to get a ticket for brandishing you have to "exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense." (Florida Statutes 790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms)
Grant you, we do not know the whole story. If the gentleman in question lives in Broward County and has to deal with BSO, he was lucky not going to jail. Accidental display of a concealed firearm is not a crime in most people's minds but some minds are just so stupid when it comes to guns it is not even half-funny.
ra - all your points re open vs concealed are well taken and I am with you for most part.
Let no one think otherwise - I am anywhere else than home (and gun club) concealed - so much so that it is on the secrets list! :wink:
I guess in and around home tho I ought to excercize greater discretion but there is probably a ''stubborn factor'' too - the unwillingness to relinquish my simple right in a zone where I am in no way obligated to be concealed, plus my neighbors have long known I carry around the home/office and have zero problem with it. As I mentioned I think, apart from my routine scan as I go to mail box, I also turn gun side away from any casual eyes if I see them nearby.
So - reiterating again - the core of this is really just the consideration of a situation where one is wrongfully accused and no witness to back up. Same could be said about a vindictive neighbor calling in on someone they happen not to like, accusing them of something like child abuse just because they hugged their child!!
Thx for some most useful thoughts - more than I expected.
Chris, I believe your past experience with gun grabbers in a major way give you the American right to be treat with respect and honor in your front yard. I hate this creeping around we have to do in some states just to clean a gun, you know close the garage door or carry the gun hidden between house and garage sort of thing. Like your model airplane. My friend in VA does allot of the RC stuff and he has a 7 foot glider, its really nice. Take care.
Richard
The more I learn the more I think my instructor was a little on the paranoid side and I do not know any more than that. I do agree that the rules are applied differntly in differnt jurisdictions and so I don't pretend to know the legal answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miggy
I do know that having one time been accused of something I did not do by a female neighbor, I paid the price of a lawyer and was the one that had to go to court to keep my name cleared. Despite winning, I vowed to keep as low a profile as possible when it comes to possible dealings with authorities. Especially in a he said - SHE said situation. I will continue to carry per the law and will continue to keep a low profile in the neighborhood.
I think what he did may have fallen into the "Careless" part of the law stated. As gun owners, we need to remember that displaying a gun in a parking lot is likely going to be threatening to non-gun types if they see it.
Heck, if I saw someone doing something with a gun in a parking lot, esp. after the Walmart shooting(s), you would have my full attention, at minimum of condition orange. Imagine how a non-gun person would feel.
Tangle, I am assuming that the guy was inside the vehicle (I know, when you assume...) but I would love to know why he removed the gun and how he did it. If the moron made a big production of it then yes, he deserves the ticket. If he was carefully removing it but luck has it that a passerby saw him, he does not deserve the ticket because he wasn't being careless but just targeted by a nervous idiot.
XD, as a Floridian you have a great ally in a book:Florida's Firearms Laws by Jon Gutmacher. It is the most comprenhensive and up to date book you can find in the subject and Mr. Gutmacher not only gives you good advice about the law itself but about how to be smart about having and carrying a gun. I am sure you can find it at your next Gun Show or you can order it online in several sites.