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Practicing with your Carry Gun

7K views 76 replies 59 participants last post by  Reborn 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
This post is the result of a rant... :rant:
Yesterday I requaled several students at the range. Here in Arkansas, after the permit expires, you have to find an instructor and do a live fire recertification. I am there to watch them handle their gun in a safe manner,be able to efficiently load and unload and to be able to hit the target without endangering everyone in a 2 mile radius. I then sign off their paperwork so that they can send it to the ASP and get a new CHL, good for another 5 years.

No big deal right?

Wrong. :scruntiny:

I am sick and tired of people that carry a gun for self defense that cant even remember HOW to do something as simple as a reload.

Its a seemingly simple thing for most of us that take carrying a concealed weapon seriously, but it appears to me that many people think that getting a license to carry is the end of learning process, rather than the beginning.

I'm also tired of people that haven't even shot their gun, since 4 years ago when they shot it to get their license.

You cant imagine what I have seen, revolvers with melted lipstick gumming up the works, every sort of candy stuck to them, melted chocolate, pills in the barrel or cylinder, cylinders that wouldn't turn, magazines that wouldn't seat, triggers that don't pull and every sort of mechanical malfunction that could possibly happen. All of this with "carry guns".

This is the story of shooter no.1, who I will call Mr. Match...

This guy starts telling me what a great shot he is. I just nod and smile because thats the nice kind of guy that I am. He tells me how he shoots at this club and hes got this tricked out match gun that he conceals. He's a crack shot and he cant believe that he has to requal, as it is nothing more than a waste of time and ammo for such an accomplished shooter as he.Right then and there the BS meter starts alarming. Anybody that has shot a match with a full sized gun with all the bells and whistles knows that they aren't exactly the easiest guns to conceal. But hey...I think, anything is possible, maybe he does.

Then he pulls out a Llama single action with a huge muzzle break on it. ::scruntiny:

Lets just say that my experience with Llamas are less than stellar.This gun proves to be no different. It performed so well that if he had given it to me as a token of his appreciation, I would have promptly chunked it in the lake.

He's a " ranked match shooter", yet he has a hard time loading the gun. He shoots two shots and he stops to look at the paper. This apparently was a challenging target for him, it was a 10x12 white sheet of paper at the extended range of 7 yards.
I say challenging, because there are no holes in the paper.:blink:

So he shoots again and I can clearly see that he is shooting about a foot over the top of the target. I notice that his sight alignment is slim to none. I mention that to him and he tells me that he was taught to look over the top of the sights.

Sigh...
:theyareontome:

I start from scratch and teach him the basics, and low and behold he actually starts hitting the paper like a good student should. He hit it twice in a row and was very pleased with himself. Mr. Match Shooter is happy that he hit a stationary target at 7 yards twice in a row. By now,I'm thinking that I need to check out his club and see if I can win a match there.

So he is pleased with himself and I tell him to take his time, just get the shots on the paper,there is no rush at all. So he shoots. Stovepipe. He clears it after fumbling around. He shoots again. Failure to feed. He starts messing with the gun and the magazine drops out and hits the concrete. I tell him to clear the gun, place it on the table with the slide locked open and the muzzle downrange before he picks it up. He does. I tell him to load the gun. He tried to insert the magazine in backward and is trying to jam it home with the heel of his hand. I mention to him that the mag is backward, he jerks it out and inserts it correctly.:scruntiny:

He shoots one time and the gun fails to eject. This goes on and on, the gun never firing more than twice in a row before hanging up. He mentions that the ammo sucks, that its got to be the ammo as he has never had this problem before. I look at the box, it Winchester White Box.

A half hour later, he is out of ammo and I begin lecturing him. About carrying a gun that is reliable. About practicing and practicing until you can load ,aim and fire without wondering how to do it. About having ammunition that is 100 percent reliable in a gun that you may need to defend yourself or your loved ones with. About how if you ever have to draw the last thing you need to be worried about is if the gun will work or not. About how if you can't hit a stationary target that isn't shooting back or trying to cut you, that it will be much harder to hit someone that is moving and trying to kill you.

And he sits there staring blankly, without saying a word, and when I'm done he tells me that no one has ever told him that before and he thanks me over and over and over and now he wants to sign up as a member of the range so that he can practice as much as he wants to.

Then I ask him about the range that he has been shooting at and winning all the matches at and he admits that he moved too far away from it to go there much and that its been awhile.

He tells me that he is ready to get serious now.:scruntiny:

And that is the story of the first student.
Later we'll talk about the husband/wife team that came up after Mr. Match. :rant:

To all you instructors,coaches, teachers or anyone that has tried to teach someone how to shoot a gun out there, is it just me that gets the "winners" here or is this pretty common everywhere?

I'm beggining to wonder. :confused:
 
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#48 ·
Good stories. I find myself normally having to talk myself down. I mention to people that I have been shooting my dad's Glock since I was 13. The small print of that, which quickly follows when they comment how good I must be, is that for those seven some odd years I probably shot an average of once or twice a year, totaling a whopping 7-10 times at the range (with the glock mind you, shot rifles a bit more).

I find myself becoming quite the elitist though these days. I may shoot twice a week, but that's been going on for like a month and a week or two so hardly much. But I throw guns away that I can't hit perfect with, I haven't considered a sig since I picked that one up and had less than spectacular performance. I am starting to get frustrated with the range targets too, there are no people actually that small. I mean maybe I am being picky, after all I notice I'm the only one at the range shooting at the head, but come on, that miss and that graze would have been kill shots on any REAL sized head. :haha:

:scruntiny:



Yea like we could put a show about REAL guns on TV :image035:

--


All that being said I am very surprised to see here in Washington, excuse me, the people's republic of Washington, well that's a stretch too, the socialist body of Washington maybe (before you argue look at our gas tax, look at our voting history, you'll notice a difference between what we vote for and what happens :rant:)... we have no testing requirements that I have yet to hear about. It's a 30 day must-issue and the hardest part so far appears to be tracking down the SHERIFF's office that I have to apply at, State Patrol can't handle it, I've read city cops can do it but I think the official site says it has to be sheriff's office.

I am also a little surprised to see how many people support training, but are against things like background checks. No one specifically, I mean I understand the argument that background checks and other safeties can be a big nuisance (after all I never would have thought I would be outraged at our 5-day waiting period, sure enough I am going out of town two days before the "5-day" waiting period is up [actually 5-business days sigh] and so either have to postpone vacation or settle for purchase a few weeks later).... lost my train of thought there. :stups:
 
#3 ·
Fear not Bob - I have had ''winners'' too - sometimes the husband accompanying wife to training session. The guy who knows everything and is ''there to help" :rolleyes:

Better of course he stays away - particularly when (one I recall well) .... he blasts off full house 357's thru his 6" 686 ... not quite the ideal carry ..... and proceeds to barely obey the range commands which apply to the newbs. He knows best! He of course too considers he is top shot and cannot be taught anything, ever.

Other night I saw the security vid of the jeweller (forget name) - who after one robbery decided to pack - SOB with maybe a 1911 not sure but - he gets robbed again and as perp draws so does he but ---- fails to swipe off safety. He gets as reward most of the contents of the perp's revo .......... which fortunately ran dry as perp was gonna do an execution style 'finisher' - click replaced bang fortunately and somehow quick surgery saved the guy's life.

Had he had any practice, I am thinking it could have been the perp who got ventilated - an altogether much happier result!
 
#4 ·
Sad but true, too many think that once they have the permit they don't need to practice anymore. Personally I shoot more now that I have my permit than before I got it.
 
#20 ·
Same here, I have always enjoyed going to the range, but do so even more now that I have my CCW.

Herw is my quick story of someone not knowing about a gun. When I took my CCW class there was a woman there who was trying to load .38s into a 9mm mag. Makes you wonder sometimes.
 
#7 ·
Did you pass this fellow? Any instructors ever failed a person on re-qualification? I'd make him come back in a month and do it all over again---maybe once he gets serious? I don't think there's anything wrong with that---unless the state of Arkansas says 'pass them' just for showing up? Although this scenario appears humorous in a way--it is kind of sad. I can't imagine what you instructors see with the carry classes, but I hope the downsides like this won't lead to stereotyping all of us in that way.
 
#8 ·
I will bow my head and admit that I fumbled somewhat at my CCW class. I went into the class wanting a permit so that I could just throw a pistol in the glove box and be good to go.

After joining this form, and understanding the REAL reason to carry I approach the subject on a whole different level now.

Practice, weapon choice, dress, self conduct, yes the whole 9 yards.

Some learn, some won't


Z
 
#9 ·
Even as an instructor we can learn, as I found this past saturday. I was out shooting with my Father-in-law, and I learned something about my own grip. Just some background first, I'm left eye dominant, but right handed. My father is a LEO that is the same way, and taught me to cant my firearm slightly to the left more to make sighting easier. I've been doing this for years now, and always tend to squeeze too hard and push slightly throwing my shots low and left. So I decided to do an exercise that I hadn't done in a long hand and pretended that strong side was down, and shot off hand on the weak side. I ended up with all of my shots aligned in a 2 inch grouping at 25 feet. So the next 200 rounds, I switched entirely over to left, and while, it didn't feel quite as natural as shooting right handed, having learned my grips and stance for right hand, it was much easier and more accurate for me. Luckily my carry is an xd which allows me to switch. I now have a left handed holster on order so that I can switch completely over to left handed carry after some more practice. I'll have to learn all of the muscle memory to that side and undo some of my older habits, but in the end I think it'll make a difference. Why I haven't done more with this before I don't know. It was a smack myself in the forehead moment for sure.

Anyways, just wanted HotGuns to know that I completely understand where he is coming from. In our courses we teach we have had people bring out some great hand guns, only to have never shot, stripped, lubed, or cleaned them. Most of them don't even know how to load them. And when you ask what makes them want to carry, they give you some off the wall response. Why people don't understand the responsibility associated with concealed carry I will never understand. To think, hey I shot last year, I'm good to go....its just retarded.

Part of the reason I spend so much time on this forum is because of the education that I receive from it. The solid opinions, experience and overall knowledge here is hard to beat.
 
#12 ·
So I decided to do an exercise that I hadn't done in a long hand and pretended that strong side was down, and shot off hand on the weak side. I ended up with all of my shots aligned in a 2 inch grouping at 25 feet. So the next 200 rounds, I switched entirely over to left, and while, it didn't feel quite as natural as shooting right handed, having learned my grips and stance for right hand, it was much easier and more accurate for me.
Massad Ayoob mentioned in one of his books that it is frequently easier to teach a person to shoot left handed than right handed. There are two many bad habits developed by right hand shooters.
 
#10 ·
Loved the story. Can't wait to hear more. These are the people that can make us look bad. If they're gun jams up when needed, that's thier own fault, but if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, that's just dangerous. This is what the anti's argue about. People having guns that have little experience.
 
#40 ·
Agree 100%. Still, I once said in a gun forum that I thought training should be mandatory for a CCL and the 2nd amendment "fanatics" almost ripped my head off.

They can't seem to comprehend that those yahoo's who can't load, shoot, or handle a gun safely are the greatest danger we have for letting the anti's win.

:spankme:
 
#11 ·
Great story.

I'm not an instructor, I don't deal with "students" at all, but like everybody else that goes to the range regularely, I see my share of completely clueless people.

The saddest cases are the testosterone jocks that are trying to get the wife to shoot guns that hurt them, like 12 oz .357 magnums. I can't help overhearing, feel sorry for the lady, but unless they are getting unsafe (in which case I just leave because they aren't going to be trainable), I just keep doing my thing.

I packed up and left after seeing a bunch of guys in their early 20's who were sharing a lane and reloading behind the firing line so they wouldn't waste time when it was their turn. Scared me to death and I am fearless. <G> Fortunately I didn't have to pass their lanes to get out the door. I told the range manager after I paid for my time and he immediately headed back there to see what was going on.

Then there was the guy that had just started reloading - out of the corner of my eye I see a motion and immediately stop firing - the guy was crawling out in front of the line to get his brass! I couldn't help myself, I asked him "what are you doing? You could get killed out there!" He said, "I'm on my hands and knees, you are all standing up, you won't hit me. I want my brass!" Guy was dumber than a box of rocks. Things went sort of down hill from there but eventually he got the idea that one NEVER goes ahead of the firing line at a shooting range.

But what I've seen probably isn't even in the contest with what folks that do regular instruction see.

Fitch
 
#13 ·
I remember when I took my CHL class in Texas I the store that does the classes has an indoor range with camera so those of us waiting to qualify can watch the other groups. In the first group was a woman and her husband on separate lanes, she was having difficulty loading her gun and the owner discovered that she was trying to force .40S&W rounds into HER 9mm. Evidently after they wouldn't fit in her mag she was trying to force them straight into the chamber. Wow. :buttkick:
 
#16 ·
that was a great story hotguns i have not laughed that much on DC for a while. please tell us more in the future.:rofl:

also, as far as some of the people you have to deal with. i feel for ya brother.:blink:
 
#17 ·
Im not a comparitively experienced shooter, but I have a pretty good natural ability. After my initial CCW class, a few people who were also new suggested we meet back at the range to shoot together.

Because I was a descent shot, a lot of them presumed I was an expert, and that I could teach them something. Truth being, I didnt know crap, I could just hit my target. There were four of us and we shared two lanes. Apparently these people mistook our outing for some kind of bowling tourney. Again, I didnt have alot of range experience, but I verbally questioned the appropriateness of them walking loaded and chambered between our two lanes to whichever one I was in, hoping they would pick something up from my technique.

They seemed to think the behavior was acceptable, and explained this to me whilst gesticulating about with loaded guns in their hands. Apparently having passed the class made you an expert, and worthy of trust to act like an jerk with a loaded gun. I just walked off the range and asked the management if this was normal range behavior. If it was, I wasnt coming back. He went to go reaffirm the rules to them, and although I was outside I could see the situation get ridiculous.

The woman who was shooting with us actually pointed the gun at her head in frustration while debating with the rangemaster! He asked to see her gun, she handed it over. He unloaded it and asked her to follow him. He gave her the gun back unloaded outside the range, and asked her not to come back. He then waved the other two guys of the range from outside the glass. When they came out another employee went in and got their guns. They were asked to leave as well. This was probably my 4th or 5th time at the range, and I almost gave up the whole idea right then and there, until it was made apparent to me that this wasn't normal.

You dont have to be an expert, or even a journeyman to understand the lethality of a loaded weapon. People are scary.
 
#18 ·
Mine is NOT really about a guy that "Knows Everything" or is a IDPS Champion. But rather a guy that was willing to listen to basic advice. I am not the greatest shot myself, but is willing to teach basics in regards to recoil anticipation and basic grips.

One guy was having failure to feed problems with his Bersa .380. I asked if the pistol was new and if he was willing to listen to some advice? Guy was very kind and said "Sure, I'll take any. You're actually the first to offer". After a couple of Q&A's, his Bersa was new off the shelf, only basic cleaning (not incl. the mag), and the shooter has his first CHL course in a week with minimal experience. It wasn't his grip. It was the pistol. He over oiled the pistol that the gun powder residue was preventing reliable feeding. I wiped off ALL the oil and showed him how to disassemble the mag and wiped out ALL the thick oil from the inside of the mag. Recommended a light bead of grease on the rails and no oil in the magazine. Heck, I gave him my half-empty tube of grease as a present for a first time shooter. The Bersa went back to being as reliable as they are known to be. About half an hour later, the guy tapped me on the shoulder and graciously thanked me for the help and advice and hopes to see me again at the range. I asked if the Bersa had any failures since the cleaning. He said, in fact, the pistol works perfectly and is confident that he'll score perfectly, given that he followed my advice for the pistol.

The End.
 
#19 ·
it appears to me that many people think that getting a license to carry is the end of learning process, rather than the beginning.
That is some really good words that people should think more about..And should be repeated way to many times on a course..

Great piece of advise. And you must have a lot of patient to make it trough many of this days..i know i could not deal with that kind..Keep up the good work.

It really makes you think..There should be a test at least twice a year..
 
#22 ·
Unbelieveable story! Yet I suspect not rare enough. I am not an instructor nor do I know if I'll ever become one. But I know I am and always will be a life long student. I cannot imagine how anyone can ever stop practicing and learning. Especially when thier life and that of their loved ones may someday depend on it.
 
#23 ·
I feel the urge to throw my little tidbit in now. I am not an instructor, not have I been to any Advanced Firearms school. My friends at work found out that I have got my CHP and are wanting to get theirs when they get back and it seems like everyday I get a new group of questions. I usually tell them I will talk to them later and consult DC's advice. For example a very dear friend of mine named Josh is very adiment about getting his permit before he leaves NC when he ETS. First he wanted to get a Desert Eagle for a CCW I gave him my $0.02 and he decided that it would be very difficult/unconfortable to carry this weapon. He has decided to go ahead and wait til we are home, shoot some of my pistols and some range rentals trying to find the best fitting pistol for him. He and I are also going to take a few classes when we get back and start IDPA. He is still wanting the DE and that may be a later purchase but not as a CCW. He is asking me everyday if I have found a good school in NC. Still looking but that is for a diffrent topic.
 
#24 ·
The great debate.

I've always been, and fundamentally still am, an advocate of being able to CCW without mandatory training. The simple fact is, though, that many in todays society are clueless about life in general and firearms in particular. It makes me wonder about the soundness of my opinion.

The range I go to has nothing shorter than a 25 yard line, perfectly fine for me. I have seen folks step up and blast away with no regard for sight picture or shooting form, point guns across lanes, not unload during cease fires, etc. While most are open to the casual "hey, buddy, please...", there are always one or two who are such "experts" that they think rules don't apply to them. This labels them automatically as rank neophytes.

I did teach a handgun class in the Navy, but most of my students were there because they were being issued a handgun with the intent of going into harms way and needing one, they made excellent pupils. Nothing like the threat of getting ones kiester shot up to focus one's attention. Ran into a Marine on leave last year, going back to the M.E. and knew he'd be issued a 1911, had no prior experience with one. Saw me shooting, asked a few questions, wound up getting a few hours of tutelage and shot up his ammo and half of mine. Focused learner. Sadly, many who CCW see it as just one more thing to toss in the pocket when they leave the house, with no thought on what it would take to effectively use it.
 
#25 ·
No story but, It ticks me off when a guy comes in with a 6" Revolver to qualify and you know he isn't going to carry a 6" gun. you should shoot what you carry,you wimp. I carry a 357 snub and thats what I shot.
 
#26 ·
I'll add my story, and I wish I could say it was somebody I saw, but it wasn't, it was me.
I had quite a bit of experience with guns in general, growing up in East Texas, I guess everybody did. I had done more than my fair share of hunting trips, target practice, etc(after all, all I had to do was gather some cans and step out in my back yard); but I had only shot revolvers, rifles, and shot guns. I had never even held a bottom feeder before. Anyway, I had been out of the Navy about 6 months and found out that my CHL would be free(aside from the class) as long as I had been discharged in under a year so I decided I would go ahead and get it. I didn't know if I would carry or not, I just knew it lasted 5 years and I figured I might want to carry some time so I might as well go ahead and get it. Anyway, I didn't know what to expect, so I studied the laws, and made sure I knew everything I needed to know.
With that said, I head up to my CHL class with my .38 revolver. We sit through the class and as we are about to head to the range, the instructor asks us what we are going to qualify with. I told him my S&W .38. He told me no. He said he would highly recommend I shoot with a Semi so as not to limit myself in type of gun I could carry. I explained to him that I had never held a Semi before in my life, didn't know the manual of arms, didn't know how to load a magazine, or clear a weapon, or anything like it. He said no problem, but he still wanted my to qualify with a semi. Well, we get to the range and everybody is buying ammo and getting set up, so I whisper to him, "What do I want to rent?". He tells me "xd9". I had no idea what that meant, but I stroll up to the counter and confidently tell the guy I need an xd9 and a box of ammo. I fill out the paperwork and he puts it in a tupperware thingy and off we go. The instructor asks everybody if they have at least 10 round magazines...I'm like, "I have no idea". So, he walks over to me and we spend the next 10 minutes with everybody waiting on us, while he explains how to load a magazine, how to seat them properly, how to clear the gun, how to load the magazine into the gun, how to rack the slide, and everything else. He probably stopped me 2-3 times when I reverted to a revolver grip with my weak thumb near the slide. Anyway, everything went fine, I qualified with a 243/250, which is why I decided to go with an XD9 as a carry gun.

I have put several thousand rounds down range since then, and am as familiar with semi's as revolver's now, but I definitely feel sorry for the guys that had to wait on me to learn how to use my rented pistol before I could qualify.
 
#29 ·
Before someone wonders about this I will explain something. The above (revolver vs. semi-auto for qualifying) is an issue in Texas and Oklahoma -- I am not sure about other states. In Oklahoma (and apparently TX as well) when you get your CHL, the gun you shoot determines what type of gun you can carry. If you shoot a revolver you are limited to carrying a revolver (or a derringer!). If you shoot a semi-auto you can carry what you like (up to .45 cal in OK :gah: )
 
#27 ·
AAH, but that's different.

The difference is you didn't act like a know-it-all and were willing to learn.

Just a question, what exactly do you do with the left thumb? I shoot with it on the frame, very close to the slide. Leaving it hanging out in space weakens the grip and adds felt recoil as well as muzzle flip due to the hands being lower on the pistol.
 
#28 ·
The difference is you didn't act like a know-it-all and were willing to learn.

Just a question, what exactly do you do with the left thumb? I shoot with it on the frame, very close to the slide. Leaving it hanging out in space weakens the grip and adds felt recoil as well as muzzle flip due to the hands being lower on the pistol.
He told me to put both thumbs forward because with weak thumb over strong thumb the slide could come back and hit my hand. I've heard a few other people say that, but I have also heard people say that it isn't likely. I'm still debating on that, but I seem to do pretty well, with my weak hand supporting the bottom of the pistol with my weak thumb on the frame just below my strong thumb.
 
#30 ·
Interesting story,I wonder if the guy was smart enough to buy a decent cc
pistol.Here is perfect illustration of a cheap pistol that could cost you your live
in a dangerous situation.I hope he got the point you need to practice as much
as you can and have a good quality firearm.
 
#31 ·
I was teaching at a basic SWAT school once. The candidates were from various jurisdictions and all had different weapons. Now, the qualification COFs are understandably different for SA rifles and SF rifles. I announced that the quals were to begin. The SA group was to move to one side of the room and the SF group was to move to the other. Not one but TWO candidates came me and asked which group to go to as their weapons were both SA and SF. ?!??!??! :blink:
 
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