Display/Fire Debate

This is a discussion on Display/Fire Debate within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hm. Here's what I'm thinking, and I would greatly appreciate feedback. BG sees my drawn pistol (and I really am willing to fire, btw), then: ...

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Thread: Display/Fire Debate

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Hm. Here's what I'm thinking, and I would greatly appreciate feedback.
    BG sees my drawn pistol (and I really am willing to fire, btw), then:

    Option 1: If he fails to stop or begins to point the weapon towards me or my family, I shoot.

    Option 2: If he hightails it out of there as I head for cover, I shout, "turn around and I shoot"
    Option 2A: If he makes it away without turning around, I've won.
    Option 2B: If he dropped his weapon and turns back towards me with something in his hand, I shoot, as it is likely to be a backup weapon.
    Option 2C: If he kept his weapon and turns back towards me, I shoot.

    Option 3A: If he drops his weapon and raises his hands and stands there, I tell him to get on the ground with hands fully outstretched.
    Option 3Ai: Dropped weapon, raises hands, drops to ground when ordered, hands outstretched; if he stays there until cops arrive, I've won.
    Option 3Aii: Dropped weapon, raises hands, drops to ground when ordered, hands outstretched; if he moves hands toward body, I OC the snot out him. If hands then go to face, that's probably to be expected. If they go towards waist, I shoot.

    Option 3B: Dropped weapon, raises hands, stands there; if he starts to leave, I shout "keep your hands out for the next block or you get it in the back!" (as I move to cover).
    Option 3Bi: Dropped weapon, raises hands, stands there; starts to leave; He keeps hands out, leaves the area, and I've won.
    Option 3Bii: Dropped weapon, raises hands, stands there; starts to leave; he goes for a pocket or waistband, I shoot.

    Comments?

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  3. #17
    Member Array Pitbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    Hm. Here's what I'm thinking, and I would greatly appreciate feedback.
    ...

    Comments?
    That's the kind of analysis I was looking for. I like it. Thanks. I'm glad to see others have put SOME kind of thought into it other than "Make My Day."


  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post

    Comments?
    Just one - when the BG can't see you, make sure that anytime you give him an indication of your position by issuing a command, move afterwards.

    That way, if he does decide to turn and re-engage, you've got an advantage, since you know right where he is and he has to re-acquire you.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Whoa - whoa - wait a minute! I'm just making this stuff up, and have no idea if this layout makes sense! PLEASE don't adopt any of these ideas until we have some of the heavyweights here give their thoughts! Good advice on the movement - I had figured on moving to cover, but your idea of moving once out of view is a great one.

  6. #20
    Member Array jackdog's Avatar
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    Sorry guys but the only reason to pull your weapon is if you or your family is under threat of severe injury or death. if the Bg has a weapon knife ball bat gun, , And is heading for me or family he is gonna have to stop in a fraction of a second once my weapon is drawn. If for any reason he fails to stop or back up he just got shot, numerous times. It is important that you understand the rules of deadly force in your home state, and or a state your in. If it comes down to drawing a weapon then you have virtually little or no time to make your decision. That is why knowing and using good situational awareness is so important. That more than anything else is the way to stay out of trouble.
    Jack dog

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    The only time I would present a firearm is if I thought my life, or someone else's life, is in immediate danger. If simply displaying a firearm ends the threat, then great. If not, then I will shoot until the threat ends.

    I'm not a LEO, and I have no interest in "holding" someone at gunpoint until the police arrive. If, when I present, the BG runs away, so much the better. Of course, to avoid a "brandishing" charge, I would immediately call 9-1-1.
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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    My actions would be pretty much the same as gwhall57's.

    In Colorado, a lethal threat can be met legally with lethal force. To display my weapon for any other reason could incur a charge of felony menacing ("brandish" does not appear in the Colorado Revised Statutes).

    A lethal threat would be an action, like someone other than a uniformed LEO pointing a gun or knife at me; I would ignore whatever the threatener might say, and I would not waste time giving a verbal warning.

    If I recognize a lethal threat, I first decide to shoot, then draw, then shoot. If the lethal threat ceases during the brief interval between my starting to draw and pulling the trigger, like if the bad guy has really fast reflexes and turns to run before I can shoot---that's the only way I would not shoot at that point.

  9. #23
    Member Array American Pit Bull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitbull View Post
    So what do you do? Not get involved?
    "Not get involved" in what?
    The only reason that I will draw my CCW is to stop a BG from killing or maiming someone else. If I see a property crime in progress, I will not play the role of an LEO.

    I would never even entertain the idea of trying to cuff a BG... I will use my CCW to defuse a situation immediately and I would never think of yelling "Stop!" to a fleeing BG.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I'm don't believe I will wait to draw until a BG is an 'immediate' threat to my life or my families life. If I believe a BG is about to become an 'immediate' threat, I will draw. So, I guess we'll say I will respond to an intermediate threat. I would rather act too soon, than too late.
    As far as if I would shoot an intermediate threat...no, but if he decides to become an immediate threat after I have a sight picture, then I will shoot. That way I won't have to worry about drawing and getting a sight picture as he is rushing me or grabbing for his weapon.

    As far as me holding somebody for police, well, I doubt it, but maybe if I didn't think I would be able to identify him later...

    But as said before, state laws differ. YMMV
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  11. #25
    Member Array 1911 guy's Avatar
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    Simple rules.

    Keeping rules simple makes life simple. Or at least not quite so complicated. I'll give you my take as a completely civilian CCW holder.

    There is no need/use in pulling a gun unless you intend to shoot. Period, full stop.
    If the opponent sees the gun in time and ceases his/her activity that makes you justified in shooting, then you've achieved your goal without shooting.


    I worked for a small company in the late 1990's in South Africa, we were basically baby-sitters for well workers. When the militants came to start trouble, we soon learned that parading around with guns was wholly ineffective. It only took a couple times of laying in wait to end it, though. Criminals know that to most people, having a gun does not mean the intent to do violence. The mindset that advocates waving a gun as a talisman will almost invariably wait too long before ending the situation with a shot.

  12. #26
    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    Option 2: If he hightails it out of there as I head for cover, I shout, "turn around and I shoot"
    My eyes are playing tricks on me this morning. At first I thought it said,

    If he hightails it out of there as I head for cover, I shout, "turn around!!!" then I shoot

    Takes on a whole new meaning when read that way.


    When the militants came to start trouble, we soon learned that parading around with guns was wholly ineffective.
    1911 Guy, I tend to lean more towards your line of thought, but I don't think anyone is suggesting parading around with guns drawn and at the read 24/7.

    But I also think it depends on each circumstance you might find yourself in. Only once have I ever felt like I was close to pulling my weapon. It was while I was sitting in line at the drive through at about 3am, on my way home from work. Two guys decide they are going to walk through the drive through right behind me. When I looked up in the mirror and saw them approaching, I immediately took my gun from its holster and put it under my thigh, so I still had a grip on it, but from a casual glance it just looked I was sitting on my hand. They didn't come all the way up to my but stopped at the speaker. After they loudly ordered (I knew then why they were walking instead of driving. Drunk off their ***'s) one of them walks right up to my window as I'm paying for my order at window number one. So, I'm handing money out my window, and someone starts walking right towards me who I know already has impaired judgment.

    Long story short, I didn't have to pull out my gun, but even then, with it still safely concealed, I was fully prepared to shoot this guy if I thought he was about to do something to put my life in danger. Turned out he was kid home from college, just turned 21, and really didn't know how to handle himself in that condition in public.

    Summation: Be prepared to shoot before you ever draw. Brandishing to stop an attack happens a lot, it sounds like from the FBI stats I've read, but brandishing without an intent to actually fire, may just get you hurt or killed.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdog View Post
    Sorry guys but the only reason to pull your weapon is if you or your family is under threat of severe injury or death. ...
    ABSOLUTELY! No argument here! I quite agree! And regarding the law: I thought I understood the rules before and then did MORE research to ensure that I did. (I did.)

    No, the problem I was addressing is, what do you do if you catch one? You know, he drops his gun, puts his hands in the air, and at that instant you have a prisoner of sorts and have to figure out what to do with him. It's almost like being the dog chasing a car - what are you going to do if it stops?

    I realize now that this was a bit of a thread hijack, so apologies to the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by foreveryoung001 View Post
    My eyes are playing tricks on me this morning. At first I thought it said,

    If he hightails it out of there as I head for cover, I shout, "turn around!!!" then I shoot

    Takes on a whole new meaning when read that way.
    ...
    Summation: Be prepared to shoot before you ever draw. Brandishing to stop an attack happens a lot, it sounds like from the FBI stats I've read, but brandishing without an intent to actually fire, may just get you hurt or killed.
    That's hilarious - but that's not quite what I had in mind! Thanks for the chuckle!

    And the brandishing I do is between when the gun is in the holster pointed at the ground and when it is in my hand pointed at the bad guy, with trigger pressure beginning to be applied. No games here!

    When I was 20 I wanted a badge - at 21, I realized that was foolish, so I turned away from pursuing police work and bought myself a Junior Detective badge at the supermarket. At home, I announced to the empty room, "Gosh, aren't you impressive now!" and threw it away. One of the healthier things I've done.

  14. #28
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    A lot of good advice in the posts on this thread. Too many people are so "tense" while carrying a gun that they tend to consider it as a first solution to any situation. Just think of how you would handle it without a gun and what happens if you decide to use your gun. When you hear about a shooting and many times it is a "good" shoot did they really have to shoot someone? It may be legal but was it right?

  15. #29
    Member Array Pitbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    I realize now that this was a bit of a thread hijack, so apologies to the OP.
    Not at all - this is the kind of discussion I wanted to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    Too many people are so "tense" while carrying a gun that they tend to consider it as a first solution to any situation.
    I totally agree. I've read MANY threads where people seem to be looking for a reason to draw down on someone whereas I think as someone licensed to carry an article of deadly force it is my responsibility to handle it as responsibly and prudently as possible. Ideally, I'd like to go an entire lifetime without drawing and would LIKE to think that most CCP holders feel the same. It's made me somewhat uncomfortable that it seems like everyday there's a new post about how someone was about to make a life altering decision for themselves and others and the general responses are very cavalier. I'm no liberal but, as a veteran who has been in situations where the gut reaction is to use deadly force and after a second or two of situational analysis, I'm loathe to pull the trigger. For me, it's an absolute last resort. That's not to say I WOULDN'T... it's that I'm not looking for an opportunity to...

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdog View Post
    Sorry guys but the only reason to pull your weapon is if you or your family is under threat of severe injury or death. if the Bg has a weapon knife ball bat gun, , And is heading for me or family he is gonna have to stop in a fraction of a second once my weapon is drawn. If for any reason he fails to stop or back up he just got shot, numerous times. It is important that you understand the rules of deadly force in your home state, and or a state your in. If it comes down to drawing a weapon then you have virtually little or no time to make your decision. That is why knowing and using good situational awareness is so important. That more than anything else is the way to stay out of trouble.
    A great many things can happen in 21 feet (we should all know this one by now). And as a reality keeper to this I remind myself how far 21 feet is on a daily basis.

    I know from personal experience that a average height (5' 10") and shorter can cover that distance faster than a taller person. Length of leg makes a huge difference.

    Now a tall guy on a slippery surface may make that choice to stop at 10 feet when he sees my weapon come clear of my holster, but momentum and inertia will carry him into me. Did I see his intent to continue, an adjustment to his attack, or an ? A shorter guy may but it will be at 5 feet and I will still be in the same situation.

    Another question to ask yourself is how long a hesitation on the BG's part do you allow? Is he reforming his attack, or dealing with the shock of "Bummer, I choose poorly"? This is a really fast paced game of chess.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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