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Display/Fire Debate

4K views 37 replies 24 participants last post by  Kerbouchard 
#1 ·
Hey all -

This post got me thinking:
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...ssues-discussions/43343-almost-bad-shoot.html

I've often wondered how things would "go down" if I was ever presented with a "need to display" situation.

I would like to think that I don't have a "shoot first ask questions later" mentality. Here in VA, we do NOT have castle doctrine and I've been warned by many an LEO, lawyer and instructor that pulling the trigger MUST be an absolute necessity, the general consensus being that while our gun laws in VA are fairly good that the juries may/may not be and proving self defense isn't always a given. And even IF I am aquitted in a criminal trial the family of the victim (or the victim if he survives) is well within his right to sue me civilly for damages into the tens of millions. Somehow the "Armed Citizen" section of NRA's First Freedom doesn't really mention the second order effects of shooting someone in self defense.

So, if given the option, I would much rather hold the BG face down on the pavement at gunpoint until LEO's arrived and I go home not having to worry about being brought up on manslaughter charges and able to sleep having not taken someone's life. I'd like to think this is the path I'd take in MOST situations - after all bankrupting my family or abandoning my family for prison seems to void the argument of carrying to defend my family.

But all of us know that when we leave the house carrying, today, God forbid, might be the day we have to actually fire. If a guy has my wife at gunpoint, for example, that might be the time when I draw, shoot then think about consequences.

So, there have to be situations where you'd a) display and hold until authorities arrive and b) shoot first, ask questions later.

What are your scenarios? (And please no "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" arguments)

Andy
 
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#2 ·
The old hold the BG face down until the LEO arrive deal. Sounds great until the bg tries to get up and run. Then what do you do? Do you shoot him in the back or let him run? You have him face down may be even in handcuffs and he doesn't do what you want him to so you shoot him. Talk about looking bad in front of a jury.

I don't have an answer as there is no easy answer. Don't depend on TV to teach you what to do in real life. There are going to be a lot of decisions to make well before you ever get to the point of making the BG lie face down on the pavement.
 
#4 ·
I'm not leo but i do have a pair of S&W handcuffs in my console of my truck. Hmm I would think never shoot unless you have to! If he stops at the sight of your firearm, you saved your life, if he has your wife and you trust you shoot him!!!
 
#5 ·
OC Spray. bottom line
if you arent gonna pull the trigger and you get him face down, and he tries to get up you spray the hell out of him. he'll cry but a leo should understand. i always carry oc spray for the just in case situation.
but i am a shooter. you come through that door i blast and if you dont die i ask you how low your IQ is.
 
#12 ·
So what do you do? Not get involved? Surely there are situations where it's not prudent to open fire. I think most people are this forum are pro carry but also have a modicum of self-control.

I guess my original point is we have 3 options as ccp'ers:

1) don't get involved/don't display
2) Display without intent to fire
3) Fire

Am I missing any? For me, pulling the trigger, ending another man's/woman's life or wounding him/her severely, potentially going to prison, exposing myself to costly civil suits is an absolute last resort... hell, I'd almost hand over my wallet if I thought the SOB would be happy with that and leave. Everything in there is replaceable.

Potential 4th option would be to use some sort of CQ take down (thinking something line L.I.N.E which I learned in the Army and supposedly is still taught but hell, even a good "Russian drag" would be enough to decleat an unsuspecting someone who was reaching for a wallet being used as "bait")... Once you get someone down on the ground anyone with any HS wrestling experience can keep them there, size notwithstanding...

So whats your criteria?
 
#16 ·
Hm. Here's what I'm thinking, and I would greatly appreciate feedback.
BG sees my drawn pistol (and I really am willing to fire, btw), then:

Option 1: If he fails to stop or begins to point the weapon towards me or my family, I shoot.

Option 2: If he hightails it out of there as I head for cover, I shout, "turn around and I shoot"
Option 2A: If he makes it away without turning around, I've won.
Option 2B: If he dropped his weapon and turns back towards me with something in his hand, I shoot, as it is likely to be a backup weapon.
Option 2C: If he kept his weapon and turns back towards me, I shoot.

Option 3A: If he drops his weapon and raises his hands and stands there, I tell him to get on the ground with hands fully outstretched.
Option 3Ai: Dropped weapon, raises hands, drops to ground when ordered, hands outstretched; if he stays there until cops arrive, I've won.
Option 3Aii: Dropped weapon, raises hands, drops to ground when ordered, hands outstretched; if he moves hands toward body, I OC the snot out him. If hands then go to face, that's probably to be expected. If they go towards waist, I shoot.

Option 3B: Dropped weapon, raises hands, stands there; if he starts to leave, I shout "keep your hands out for the next block or you get it in the back!" (as I move to cover).
Option 3Bi: Dropped weapon, raises hands, stands there; starts to leave; He keeps hands out, leaves the area, and I've won.
Option 3Bii: Dropped weapon, raises hands, stands there; starts to leave; he goes for a pocket or waistband, I shoot.

Comments?
 
#20 ·
Sorry guys but the only reason to pull your weapon is if you or your family is under threat of severe injury or death. if the Bg has a weapon knife ball bat gun, , And is heading for me or family he is gonna have to stop in a fraction of a second once my weapon is drawn. If for any reason he fails to stop or back up he just got shot, numerous times. It is important that you understand the rules of deadly force in your home state, and or a state your in. If it comes down to drawing a weapon then you have virtually little or no time to make your decision. That is why knowing and using good situational awareness is so important. That more than anything else is the way to stay out of trouble.
 
#27 ·
Sorry guys but the only reason to pull your weapon is if you or your family is under threat of severe injury or death. ...
ABSOLUTELY! No argument here! I quite agree! And regarding the law: I thought I understood the rules before and then did MORE research to ensure that I did. (I did.)

No, the problem I was addressing is, what do you do if you catch one? You know, he drops his gun, puts his hands in the air, and at that instant you have a prisoner of sorts and have to figure out what to do with him. It's almost like being the dog chasing a car - what are you going to do if it stops?

I realize now that this was a bit of a thread hijack, so apologies to the OP.

My eyes are playing tricks on me this morning. At first I thought it said,

If he hightails it out of there as I head for cover, I shout, "turn around!!!" then I shoot

Takes on a whole new meaning when read that way.:rolleyes:
...
Summation: Be prepared to shoot before you ever draw. Brandishing to stop an attack happens a lot, it sounds like from the FBI stats I've read, but brandishing without an intent to actually fire, may just get you hurt or killed.
That's hilarious - but that's not quite what I had in mind! Thanks for the chuckle!

And the brandishing I do is between when the gun is in the holster pointed at the ground and when it is in my hand pointed at the bad guy, with trigger pressure beginning to be applied. No games here!

When I was 20 I wanted a badge - at 21, I realized that was foolish, so I turned away from pursuing police work and bought myself a Junior Detective badge at the supermarket. At home, I announced to the empty room, "Gosh, aren't you impressive now!" and threw it away. One of the healthier things I've done.
 
#21 ·
The only time I would present a firearm is if I thought my life, or someone else's life, is in immediate danger. If simply displaying a firearm ends the threat, then great. If not, then I will shoot until the threat ends.

I'm not a LEO, and I have no interest in "holding" someone at gunpoint until the police arrive. If, when I present, the BG runs away, so much the better. Of course, to avoid a "brandishing" charge, I would immediately call 9-1-1.
 
#22 ·
My actions would be pretty much the same as gwhall57's.

In Colorado, a lethal threat can be met legally with lethal force. To display my weapon for any other reason could incur a charge of felony menacing ("brandish" does not appear in the Colorado Revised Statutes).

A lethal threat would be an action, like someone other than a uniformed LEO pointing a gun or knife at me; I would ignore whatever the threatener might say, and I would not waste time giving a verbal warning.

If I recognize a lethal threat, I first decide to shoot, then draw, then shoot. If the lethal threat ceases during the brief interval between my starting to draw and pulling the trigger, like if the bad guy has really fast reflexes and turns to run before I can shoot---that's the only way I would not shoot at that point.
 
#24 ·
I'm don't believe I will wait to draw until a BG is an 'immediate' threat to my life or my families life. If I believe a BG is about to become an 'immediate' threat, I will draw. So, I guess we'll say I will respond to an intermediate threat. I would rather act too soon, than too late.
As far as if I would shoot an intermediate threat...no, but if he decides to become an immediate threat after I have a sight picture, then I will shoot. That way I won't have to worry about drawing and getting a sight picture as he is rushing me or grabbing for his weapon.

As far as me holding somebody for police, well, I doubt it, but maybe if I didn't think I would be able to identify him later...

But as said before, state laws differ. YMMV
 
#25 ·
Simple rules.

Keeping rules simple makes life simple. Or at least not quite so complicated. I'll give you my take as a completely civilian CCW holder.

There is no need/use in pulling a gun unless you intend to shoot. Period, full stop.
If the opponent sees the gun in time and ceases his/her activity that makes you justified in shooting, then you've achieved your goal without shooting.


I worked for a small company in the late 1990's in South Africa, we were basically baby-sitters for well workers. When the militants came to start trouble, we soon learned that parading around with guns was wholly ineffective. It only took a couple times of laying in wait to end it, though. Criminals know that to most people, having a gun does not mean the intent to do violence. The mindset that advocates waving a gun as a talisman will almost invariably wait too long before ending the situation with a shot.
 
#28 ·
A lot of good advice in the posts on this thread. Too many people are so "tense" while carrying a gun that they tend to consider it as a first solution to any situation. Just think of how you would handle it without a gun and what happens if you decide to use your gun. When you hear about a shooting and many times it is a "good" shoot did they really have to shoot someone? It may be legal but was it right?
 
#31 ·
I think all thought of "holding" someone or cuffing them should be rejected unless you have at least three people to do the "holding" and no other persons present who may be inclined to assist the BG. The last thing you want is for the BG to get control of your weapon. All efforts should be made to prevent that from happening and to me that means you don't get near the BG if it's possible to avoid doing so.

Also, presenting and not shooting is ok if there is adequate space between you and the BG to make it workable. Your best friend is distance. If something looks questionable try to maintain distance. The only problem is most assailants can cover 25 feet in about 1 1/2 seconds. If an attack is unavoidable however, I would try to get my weapon out in time so it could do me some good before I get knocked flat on my $$$. These are some really tough things to think about but I'm sure of one thing, I would rather be armed than not armed.
 
#32 ·
interesting. remember, you can also be sued even if you do not shoot the BG. once you stop the person from his intended path, you have arrested him. so if you draw your weapon, you better be right. split second reaction will stay with you the rest of your life.
 
#34 ·
Huh?

So were worried about an assailant at 21 feet, but we'll walk up on him to detain/handcuff him/her?

What leap of reason (from a cliff) did I miss here?

Police have much greater latitude in applying force than you or I. If they resist the officer from being handcuffed, they recieve a nightstick or such. Since they have stopped doing whatever act it is that made you draw, you no longer have the threat of force to back you up. When you apply force to detain them, you are now known as "The Defendant".

If you stop a violent felony from occuring and the perpetrator is kind enough to lay dopwn and stay there, fine. If he decides to get up and run, there is nothing you can do about it (in most states).
 
#35 ·
AFAIK, police officers are the only people who can use a THREAT of deadly force to subdue someone. You are only licensed/allowed to defend your life or the life of a third party who is in imminent danger with that handgun.

You can tackle him and use panty hose or barbed wire to tie him up but you can't use the handgun to forcibly keep him against his will.

Try wrestling him to the ground if you want to subdue him. If it turns out he's a Brazillian Jiu Jitsu master, shoot him when he gets the upper hand. At that point you ARE in danger of great bodily injury or death. In my state either is reason to use deadly force.

Either:

A.) You've established he can deal you great bodily harm or

B.) He can take your weapon from you and use it against you.
 
#38 ·
YMMV, but there are several states, TX included, where the threat of lethal force is allowed if use of force is allowed. That means I do not have to be justified in the use of lethal force to use the threat of lethal force.

The threat of lethal force counts only as force...For me, if I am allowed to swing back, I am allowed to draw and get sight picture. If he breaks off the engagement we are done, if he continues to advance, I have to assume he

1. knows I have a gun
2. knows I will shoot
3. thinks he can harm me anyway

If I assume 1, 2, and 3, I will fire; Make no mistake about it. God, I love being a Texan.
 
#36 ·
This kind of reminds me of a good friend years ago, just out of downtown Houston. He was working construction and in a company truck turned off the main drag onto a side street to the construction site, and there was a 16-18 young black girl maybe 110 pounds who had an little grayhaired black lady draging her around by her purse. He drives over the curb, jumps out and shouts "STOP". Young girl looks up sees this 200 pound white guy, and decides that granny can keep the purse, heads off down the sidewalk. Buddy thinks this hero stuff is cool and going well so proceeds to try to run the girl down on foot and hold her for police. A half block he is gaining and then the sweet young thing spins around with the "BIGGEST DANG SWITCHBLADE" he had ever seen. At this point he decides the this hero stuff may not be all it seems and realy needs to think the events over and to do a little more research into the subject over a beer that evening.
 
#37 · (Edited by Moderator)
A lot of good stuff here...For me, either my life, my wifes life or someone in my immediate areas life, would have to be in mortal danger. At only 175 lbs., I'm not about to try and handcuff anyone. I don't know anything about this guy, so distance is my friend. Situations vary...if he's in my house in the middle of the night he gets nothing but buckshot...no verbal anything...If I'm in a parking lot somewhere and bg produces knife but I'm able to get the draw on him and he freezes at the sight of the gun, then he will comply or else. Like most people I hope, if I can keep from taking a life, I will. Some situations happen very quickly though, and hesitation will get you or someone you love killed...Hopefully I'll never be inserted into a situation where lethal force is the only option, and thankfully that's been the case so far. I certainly don't walk around glaring at every stranger with my hand on my gun. But there is a lot of evil in the world so you have to be ready for it. Situational awareness and a cool head under fire are paramount. Panic is enemy number one. Hesitation leads very quickly to stress...If I'm not going to have to go lethal then it's imperitive that I obtain immediate control of the situation which envolves nothing short of his total compliance. Once that's achieved my stress level will start to come down a little. (hopefully) No distracting dialog for me...anything he says will be cut off with a very loud shut up! The situations of when and when not to use lethal force are legion...multiple bgs, hostage on and on and on...There's no one formula. For me the main thing is to try to hit them with loud, fast and overwhelming domination...lethal or not. (hopefully not)
 
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