Display/Fire Debate

This is a discussion on Display/Fire Debate within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey all - This post got me thinking: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...bad-shoot.html I've often wondered how things would "go down" if I was ever presented with a "need ...

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Thread: Display/Fire Debate

  1. #1
    Member Array Pitbull's Avatar
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    Display/Fire Debate

    Hey all -

    This post got me thinking:
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...bad-shoot.html

    I've often wondered how things would "go down" if I was ever presented with a "need to display" situation.

    I would like to think that I don't have a "shoot first ask questions later" mentality. Here in VA, we do NOT have castle doctrine and I've been warned by many an LEO, lawyer and instructor that pulling the trigger MUST be an absolute necessity, the general consensus being that while our gun laws in VA are fairly good that the juries may/may not be and proving self defense isn't always a given. And even IF I am aquitted in a criminal trial the family of the victim (or the victim if he survives) is well within his right to sue me civilly for damages into the tens of millions. Somehow the "Armed Citizen" section of NRA's First Freedom doesn't really mention the second order effects of shooting someone in self defense.

    So, if given the option, I would much rather hold the BG face down on the pavement at gunpoint until LEO's arrived and I go home not having to worry about being brought up on manslaughter charges and able to sleep having not taken someone's life. I'd like to think this is the path I'd take in MOST situations - after all bankrupting my family or abandoning my family for prison seems to void the argument of carrying to defend my family.

    But all of us know that when we leave the house carrying, today, God forbid, might be the day we have to actually fire. If a guy has my wife at gunpoint, for example, that might be the time when I draw, shoot then think about consequences.

    So, there have to be situations where you'd a) display and hold until authorities arrive and b) shoot first, ask questions later.

    What are your scenarios? (And please no "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" arguments)

    Andy

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    The old hold the BG face down until the LEO arrive deal. Sounds great until the bg tries to get up and run. Then what do you do? Do you shoot him in the back or let him run? You have him face down may be even in handcuffs and he doesn't do what you want him to so you shoot him. Talk about looking bad in front of a jury.

    I don't have an answer as there is no easy answer. Don't depend on TV to teach you what to do in real life. There are going to be a lot of decisions to make well before you ever get to the point of making the BG lie face down on the pavement.

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    Member Array Pitbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    The old hold the BG face down until the LEO arrive deal. Sounds great until the bg tries to get up and run. Then what do you do? Do you shoot him in the back or let him run? You have him face down may be even in handcuffs and he doesn't do what you want him to so you shoot him. Talk about looking bad in front of a jury.

    I don't have an answer as there is no easy answer. Don't depend on TV to teach you what to do in real life. There are going to be a lot of decisions to make well before you ever get to the point of making the BG lie face down on the pavement.
    Yeah, I've thought of that. Hopefully I have my wits about me to give a good description to the police. You really only have a couple seconds to shoot someone before it begins to look really bad in court...

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    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    I'm not leo but i do have a pair of S&W handcuffs in my console of my truck. Hmm I would think never shoot unless you have to! If he stops at the sight of your firearm, you saved your life, if he has your wife and you trust you shoot him!!!
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

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    Member Array uakaos's Avatar
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    OC Spray. bottom line
    if you arent gonna pull the trigger and you get him face down, and he tries to get up you spray the hell out of him. he'll cry but a leo should understand. i always carry oc spray for the just in case situation.
    but i am a shooter. you come through that door i blast and if you dont die i ask you how low your IQ is.
    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."

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    Member Array Pitbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdwolf View Post
    I'm not leo but i do have a pair of S&W handcuffs in my console of my truck. Hmm I would think never shoot unless you have to! If he stops at the sight of your firearm, you saved your life, if he has your wife and you trust you shoot him!!!
    Another interesting debate. Can civilians cuff?

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    Senior Member Array JohnKelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitbull View Post
    Another interesting debate. Can civilians cuff?
    Of course, it is called citizen's arrest.

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    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKelly View Post
    Of course, it is called citizen's arrest.
    While that is true, I have read at various times that it is a slippery slope, and not as clean as we would like.

    PS
    Again I have not tried it, but one man to handcuff a BG is not easily done.
    I'll let the LEOs comment on this.

    Jerry

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    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKelly View Post
    Of course, it is called citizen's arrest.
    Not all states have citizen's arrest or authorize use of handcuffs by non-LEO's. NC doesn't have citizens arrest and some states don't allow handcuff possession by non-LEO's. IIRC, what I learned in the police academy here in NJ, non-LEO's are not allowed to possess handcuffs and handcuff keys here. The flexible(zip-tie style) restraints might be an option. OMO.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    I don't plan on holding anybody face down on the pavement. Who's going to watch your back while you do that? I think its a bad idea....maybe it has its place though. Just not for me.

    Austin

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    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    While that is true, I have read at various times that it is a slippery slope, and not as clean as we would like.

    PS
    Again I have not tried it, but one man to handcuff a BG is not easily done.
    I'll let the LEOs comment on this.

    Jerry
    One man to handcuff a COMPLIANT BG is easily done. However, one man to handcuff a non-compliant BG is not easy at all. I was taught at the police academy I went to, not to attempt handcuffing with anything in your hands besides handcuffs,(which means the weapon is holstered)I've seen situations where it took 3 or 4 LEO's to handcuff 1 BG who didn't want to be handcuffed and upon whom(BG's) OC had no effect. I don't want to discourage anyone from acting, just trying to inform them.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Member Array Pitbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aus71383 View Post
    I don't plan on holding anybody face down on the pavement. Who's going to watch your back while you do that? I think its a bad idea....maybe it has its place though. Just not for me.

    Austin
    So what do you do? Not get involved? Surely there are situations where it's not prudent to open fire. I think most people are this forum are pro carry but also have a modicum of self-control.

    I guess my original point is we have 3 options as ccp'ers:

    1) don't get involved/don't display
    2) Display without intent to fire
    3) Fire

    Am I missing any? For me, pulling the trigger, ending another man's/woman's life or wounding him/her severely, potentially going to prison, exposing myself to costly civil suits is an absolute last resort... hell, I'd almost hand over my wallet if I thought the SOB would be happy with that and leave. Everything in there is replaceable.

    Potential 4th option would be to use some sort of CQ take down (thinking something line L.I.N.E which I learned in the Army and supposedly is still taught but hell, even a good "Russian drag" would be enough to decleat an unsuspecting someone who was reaching for a wallet being used as "bait")... Once you get someone down on the ground anyone with any HS wrestling experience can keep them there, size notwithstanding...

    So whats your criteria?

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    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitbull View Post
    So what do you do? Not get involved? Surely there are situations where it's not prudent to open fire. I think most people are this forum are pro carry but also have a modicum of self-control.

    I guess my original point is we have 3 options as ccp'ers:

    1) don't get involved/don't display
    2) Display without intent to fire
    3) Fire

    Am I missing any? For me, pulling the trigger, ending another man's/woman's life or wounding him/her severely, potentially going to prison, exposing myself to costly civil suits is an absolute last resort... hell, I'd almost hand over my wallet if I thought the SOB would be happy with that and leave. Everything in there is replaceable.

    Potential 4th option would be to use some sort of CQ take down (thinking something line L.I.N.E which I learned in the Army and supposedly is still taught but hell, even a good "Russian drag" would be enough to decleat an unsuspecting someone who was reaching for a wallet being used as "bait")... Once you get someone down on the ground anyone with any HS wrestling experience can keep them there, size notwithstanding...

    So whats your criteria?
    I'm not sure of my criteria, but I think a 4th option should be added.
    4) Display with intent to fire. Just because you have the intent to fire doesn't mean that you will fire. Displaying a weapon can defuse a situation without the need to discharge. I don't know about the Army but L.I.N.E is no longer taught in the Marine Corps. I learned L.I.N.E in boot camp in 1998 and learned MCMAP(Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) in Japan in 2002. As far as keeping someone on the ground, I don't think a 150 lb person would keep a 250 lb person in decent shape on the ground pretty much regardless of their individual experiences. As a sidenote, I wrestled from the time I was 11 until I was 22. I have controlled a heavyweight wrestler when I weighed no more than 125lbs. However, amateur wrestling with its rules do not translate into fights for survival.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Member Array Pitbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    I'm not sure of my criteria, but I think a 4th option should be added.
    4) Display with intent to fire. Just because you have the intent to fire doesn't mean that you will fire. Displaying a weapon can defuse a situation without the need to discharge. I don't know about the Army but L.I.N.E is no longer taught in the Marine Corps. I learned L.I.N.E in boot camp in 1998 and learned MCMAP(Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) in Japan in 2002. As far as keeping someone on the ground, I don't think a 150 lb person would keep a 250 lb person in decent shape on the ground pretty much regardless of their individual experiences. As a sidenote, I wrestled from the time I was 11 until I was 22. I have controlled a heavyweight wrestler when I weighed no more than 125lbs. However, amateur wrestling with its rules do not translate into fights for survival.
    It'll be a cold day in hell when they start teaching something in the Army that's called Marine Corps anything!

    I agree with the 150 vs. 250 and actually said "size notwithstanding" because I'm a big dude at an in-shape 220 and I'm still one to pick my battles but even the knowledge of hip control/ride heigth that a wrestler has would certainly help.

    Andy

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    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitbull View Post
    It'll be a cold day in hell when they start teaching something in the Army that's called Marine Corps anything!

    I agree with the 150 vs. 250 and actually said "size notwithstanding" because I'm a big dude at an in-shape 220 and I'm still one to pick my battles but even the knowledge of hip control/ride heigth that a wrestler has would certainly help.

    Andy
    It might be a cold day in hell but the Army did take MARPAT (camo) to use for their own uniforms. Yes, hip control/ride height is a factor but trying to control someone who doesn't care about any rules does negate that somewhat.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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