Maine CC Laws
This is a discussion on Maine CC Laws within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; after doing some more research, i'm lead to believe that post offices are not prohibited in maine. also, i've yet to see written proof saying ...
March 4th, 2008 07:24 PM
Maine CC Laws
after doing some more research, i'm lead to believe that post offices are not prohibited in maine. also, i've yet to see written proof saying that banks are off limits. i hear others saying it, yet no written proof.
are there any of you in the know about these two places?
if it isn't obvious enough, i don't want answers like "concealed is concealed" and "you shouldn't go by what people say on the internet, contact a lawyer." i'm asking here because it's a large database of people that might be able to point me in the right direction to specific written laws. thanks in advance.
March 4th, 2008 08:19 PM
There is nothing in the Maine laws that prohibit post office carry.
There is nothing in the Maine laws that prohibit bank carry.
There is nothing in the Maine laws that prohibit open carry (but you WILL get hastled by the PD as a matter of course)
Courthouses & state house are off limits, but is seldom enforced.
If you find yourself in an "establishment licensed for on-premises consumption of alcohol" be sure not to keep your firearm "in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of patrons" (ie: concealed is concealled and legally OK)
If you find yourself in an "establishment licensed for on-premises consumption of alcohol" and are under the influence of drugs or alcohol with an excessive blood alcohol level, you are to be gun-free. I believe "excessive" refers to 0.08%BAC, but I could be wrong here.
I am not a lawyer.
Here's the official book by ME SP. It's obviously been updated recently to at least show Chief Lewsen.
March 4th, 2008 09:19 PM
I recall seeing a sign in my local post office that entering with a firearm is a violation of FEDERAL law.
March 4th, 2008 09:40 PM
A few years back ,I worked at Superior Court House I can assure you back in
the 80's you'd be challenged if the officer saw a firearm on you as the only
protection the judge had were retired cops that were way old .Sometimes
judge would carry and the bench was bullet proofed with a panic button.Post office I would not try it
as the last time I went in they had metal detectors as post office is federal property I wouldn't carry.I've carried in banks but kept it concealed.Open carry
you will get hassled Portland and Waterville are two worst cities in the state.
Portland been know to disarm ccw holders under Chitwood.Waterville open carry can be viewed as brandishing the way they have the ordinance written so
be careful. I am not a lawyer.The information about the two cities was given by two retired police officers who taught class for ccw.
March 5th, 2008 12:34 AM
Portland would disarm you if you were open carry under Chitwood. Not sure of the current status, but I can say nobody is weeping to see him gone.
Post office carry is restricted under federal law and there is nothing in the Maine laws about it. If you operate within the bounds of the federal laws you are fine in Maine. As to metal detectors in a post office ? never saw that one. They may be anti-theft, but definitely not anti-metal.
Quitting now before we go perilously off topic :)
March 5th, 2008 12:52 AM
Are not all US post offices FEDERAL & no guns via FEDERAL law in all states.
Same with all Nat. Parks.
Maybe look at FEDERAL law for FEDERAL areas.
State law for state ares.
March 5th, 2008 01:26 AM
It's a common misconception that CCW is banned in Post Offices. It's not as the statute that the ban is based upon specifically mentions local laws for carrying firearms. You can carry in a Post Office just fine unless it's not allowed by local or state laws.
March 5th, 2008 11:02 AM
Local police could not arrest you. Federal Protective Sertices Police, Postal Inspectors or any other federal law enforcement officer could arrest you.
Originally Posted by psychophipps
I did a quick search and found a great article:
Concealed-carry in a post office may lead to rude awakening
By Ken Hanson, Esq.
Buckeye Firearms Association
There is considerable confusion over whether an Ohio Concealed Handgun Licensee (CHL) can carry a concealed firearm at the post office. This confusion mostly centers around the wording on the signs posted at the post office. The signs quote two sections of federal regulation - 18 USC 930 and 39 CFR 232.1.
Looking at 18 USC 930, it would appear, at first blush, that carrying firearms is prohibited. That section provides:
§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
Release date: 2004-08-06
a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
So part of the confusion is rooted in the wording of this section. The prohibition applies to "Federal facilit(ies)" except as provide for in subsection (d). Subsection (d) provides:
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to-
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
Many people have seized upon (d)(3) with the argument that they have a CHL, so their carrying of a firearm is an "other lawful purpose" and therefore they are exempt from the sign. This is problematic for several reasons. First, 39 USC 410 exempts Post Offices from 18 USC 930 (being a statute dealing with Federal facilities in general.) 39 USC 410, specifically dealing with post offices, states:
§ 410. Application of other laws
Release date: 2003-06-24
(a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.
(b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:
(1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;
(2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;
Thus it would appear, by operation of 39 USC 410, that 18 USC 930, a law that deals generally with Federal property, does not apply to the Powers of the Postal Service. Rather, the only provisions of 18 USC that would apply are those specific to the post office e.g. Theft of Mail, Robbing Post Offices, Stealing Postal Money Orders etc. Further evidence of the proposition that 18 USC 930 does not apply to post offices is in the numbering of the aforementioned 39 CFR 232.1. As we will later examine, 39 CFR 232.1 clearly prohibits carrying firearms. CFR sections typically draw their numbering from the underlying laws that they are promulgated under, although there are numerous exceptions. The numbering of 39 CFR would be further evidence that 39 USC controls the situation, and not 18 USC.
The second problem with relying on 18 USC 930(d)(3) is that this section in no way EMPOWERS anyone to carry a gun; rather, that section simply states that 18 USC 930 does not apply to someone is lawfully carrying a gun incident to some lawful purpose. In Ohio's law, there is a big difference between something NOT BEING PROHIBITED and something BEING SPECIFICALLY LICENSED. Just because a statute says that certain conduct is not prohibited by that particular statute does not automatically equate into authority to engage in the conduct.
This is an important distinction, because the other part of the post office sign cites 39 CFR 232.1, which clearly does prohibit guns in post offices. In pertinent part, it states:
(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
The argument advanced against 39 CFR 232.1 is that a regulation cannot conflict with a statute, and indeed, a later portion, 39 CFR 232.1(p), states "Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated." So would 39 CFR 232.1 be in conflict if it is read to prohibit a CHL from carrying at the post office? It does not appear that this would be the case.
First, as we previously examined, 18 USC 930 does not apply to a post office. Second, as we previously examined, even if 18 USC 930 DID apply to post offices, remember that 18 USC 930(d) merely states that the lawful carrying of a firearm is not prohibited by 18 USC 930(a), not that the lawful carrying of a firearm is allowed. This being the case, what is 39 CFR 232.1 in conflict with? I think it is difficult to argue it is in conflict with anything.
This being the case, at a minimum, we have a situation where there is a valid RULE prohibiting the carrying of firearms, and properly posted signs evidencing this fact. That being the case, an Ohio CHL is prohibited from carrying at the post office by Ohio's criminal trespass. If an expansive reading is given to 39 CFR 232.1 and it is considered a FEDERAL LAW, and/or there is a federal law that makes it a crime to violate a provision of the CFR, then carrying at a post office would be prohibited by 2923.126(B)(10), meaning that the Ohio CHL would be committing a felony by carrying at the post office.
I do not want to be right about the answer to this question, because I personally see no problem with a CHL carrying in a post office. However, I think some of the information/discussion going on in forums has the potential to expose the Ohio CHL to a rude awakening.
March 5th, 2008 11:28 AM
not sure who those police officers were that gave the idea about Waterville, but it's not true in the slightest!!! what were their names if you remember? and this wasn't back in the 80's was it? :p
Originally Posted by Stetson
March 5th, 2008 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by psychophipps
thank you and thank you. this is exactly what i was looking for. so it does seem indeed that carrying in a post office would be against the law. i was unable to find the last section of that article in my searches.
Originally Posted by Jason Rogers
so in conclusion, post offices=no carry, banks=carry.
March 5th, 2008 06:39 PM
I just checked my trusty ole pro carry in the post office link, and it has been updated with :
"The Concealed Carry in the Post Office
Analysis by Robert P. Firriolo, Esq. usually at
this URL has been removed pending a review
in light of recently revised U.S.P.S. regulations,
specifically a new introductory clause to 232.1."
March 5th, 2008 10:08 PM
Sorry,I was talking about open carry when it came to City of Waterville.
It's a city ordinance.Waterville has given their officers the flexibility to charge
anyone who's open carrying the charge of brandishing.They also prohibit any
firearm discharge within the city.
March 6th, 2008 10:23 AM
i know what you were refering to stetson. i just don't see the hostility towards open carry in waterville... when was it that you heard this?
March 6th, 2008 10:24 AM
interesting!!! keep us posted if you think of it.
Originally Posted by Shizzlemah
March 6th, 2008 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by TheSamurai
Coincidentally, I was in the post office this morning and saw a town PD officer there as well, with sidearm. I didn't ask about it at the time (he wasnt one I know, and I was a little , um, well concealled is concealed!) but if the local PD can carry there, so can I - as we are both in equal standing on federal grounds.
Then again, this is smalltown USA, and things are a little different here.
Oh completely unrelated, but when I got my M1 from uncle sam, they mailed it. I wasn't home to I went to the PO to pick it up. Guy hands it over and asks what it is.... I said "curtain rods" and strolled out. If the federal government can mail me a rifle I can only assume that is another fact in favor of post office carry.
I know some folks are looking for a sample case to try this, but I'm happier not having a solid statement and having plausible denaibility.
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