Student expelled for loaded guns in car

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Thread: Student expelled for loaded guns in car

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    Thumbs down Student expelled for loaded guns in car

    Student expelled from the University of Virginia's College at Wise after campus police found loaded guns in his car.



    College paper has bad ending - Roanoke.com
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    Senior Member Array Gun Bunny's Avatar
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    Needless to say...
    Police found a loaded .45-caliber automatic pistol, a loaded .22-caliber rifle and an empty 9 mm pistol.
    Sounds scary!

    He wrote a story, so what!!! Are they going to regulate thought also?
    Maybe write the story and keep the firearms somewhere else?
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    Cool

    3.9 gpa, iraq war vet, fiction writer, involuntarily committed, and his CCW is suspended.
    What a croc!
    It's too bad this is going to cost him some money for a lawyer.
    I'm tired of this liberal anti-gun crap.


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    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    I wish some would play devil's advocate for a second...not too long ago, a guy who was considered highly by his teachers and classmates, who was studying criminal justice...went into an auditorium and blew away a bunch of innocent students. Then kills himself. Same with a girl in LA...same with VT...

    So, here is a student that writes some disturbing story about committing suicide, blowing away teachers etc...has not one gun, but 3 guns in his car, including a rifle...was an Iraq war vet (uh, lots of stories of alarming PTSD rise amongst Iraqi war vets)...I think the hair on the back of my neck would rise too.

    Not familiar with WV law...he stated it was not against the law in WV to have a gun on school grounds...only a school policy...true?

    Rick

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    I remember being suspended from high school for a poem my teacher and principal felt indicated that the author (me) was suicidal. I thought no such thing. I got a vacation for a week and a half until a psychologist figured out that I was not suicidal, but instead just a teenager. I guess they have a lot of liability to be concerned with.

    This is one of those no-win situations, guess. Some will say they acted wisely on the side of caution. Some wil say they acted as ridiculous fools. I think that it is silly to boot someone for a paper, or to revoke a CHL or commit someone. How many of us, if told to write a story, would include a gun or SD scenario or some such thing?
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    the kid should have known better... this day in age, writing something like that is stupid. if you're going to do it, atleast be smart about it. using the same name as your professor is rediculously stupid... having guns in your car at the time you turn something like this in (legal or not) is stupid... i've written, drawn, etc., things in college that i'm sure these people would have looked at quite the same... but i go about it in a different direction and the professors and students know my position and stance in the subject matter.

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    When I was in college, several years ago, my creative writing teacher specifically told us not to write about topics involving firearms. One student tried, and after the the teacher heard the rough draft, he was told, if he continued, he wouldn't get a grade for the paper. I believe he changed his topic after that.

    As for this kid. I would like to say that the campus cops handled things appropriately, but if I did, I would be condoning the "thought police". I was under the assumption that people still has certain rights until they were removed by due process. In that thought, I'm not sure people's "feelings" regarding a fictional story hold up to the definition of due process.

    Would it freak me out if I was a student in his class? It might, but my feelings shouldn't come into play when we're talking other people's rights... if it were justified to do that, then I guess all this "feel good" gun control must be justified too.

    I for one would donate to this kids legal defense, because I think these Orwellien attitudes need to be brought to light.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

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    Member Array TheSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foreveryoung001 View Post

    Would it freak me out if I was a student in his class? It might, but my feelings shouldn't come into play when we're talking other people's rights... if it were justified to do that, then I guess all this "feel good" gun control must be justified too.

    great post!!!

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    and what is even better!! (sarcasm)...is this guy will no longer be able to own a firearm since he was involuntarily committed. Ya think the antis found their new tool to beat us with? After all, they think we're crazy for carrying, much less owning a firearm (/sarcasm)
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    Maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    and what is even better!! (sarcasm)...is this guy will no longer be able to own a firearm since he was involuntarily committed. Ya think the antis found their new tool to beat us with? After all, they think we're crazy for carrying, much less owning a firearm (/sarcasm)
    Under current Virginia, I think that is true. Having set though testimony from all types of experts, I think I can confirm that the VT mental health fresco was not just a slip-through-the-cracks failure. The whole system is broken. Badly broken. It is a mishmash of bills and amendments passed over the years that are a puzzle. The head of the state agency that licences psychoanalyst agreed that no one agrees how it was supposed to fit together/work.

    The good news is that there is a major reform (HB 815 see: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...81+ful+HB815H3) in the works that makes sense (assuming Kaine signs it) -- at less it makes sense until the idiots start mishmashing it again with special interest / hidden agenda bills and amendments. In response to the VT tragedy, there were nearly as many bills as the are delegates in the hopper. They have been sorted out and rolled into this one.

    VCDL was originally neutral but now supports the current bill, as it improves current law, allowing for restoration of rights, and requires better due process before rights are lost. See: 1.B. of HB 815. IMHO, VCDL was a major mover in the due process and restoration of rights issues. For example, under the new bill the lose of rights would not happen until after the "evaluation" not just because he was detained, or involuntary committed for evaluation. Under the new bill the court needs to order that the defendant receive treatment to restore his competency (not just detained for evaluated) before the loss of rights.

    I believe that was a Federal Law recently signed that also created some restoration due process. I'll do some research, unless someone else has it at their fingertips
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    I wish some would play devil's advocate for a second...not too long ago, a guy who was considered highly by his teachers and classmates, who was studying criminal justice...went into an auditorium and blew away a bunch of innocent students. Then kills himself. Same with a girl in LA...same with VT...

    So, here is a student that writes some disturbing story about committing suicide, blowing away teachers etc...has not one gun, but 3 guns in his car, including a rifle...was an Iraq war vet (uh, lots of stories of alarming PTSD rise amongst Iraqi war vets)...I think the hair on the back of my neck would rise too.

    Not familiar with WV law...he stated it was not against the law in WV to have a gun on school grounds...only a school policy...true?

    Rick
    I was thinking the same thing. I know we're all about protecting the second amendment, but sometimes you have to side against the gun owner. How many school shooter have written violent stories that were ignored prior to their deadly rampage? Some have written lists of potential victims and when caught said it was only a fantasy writing. You can't be too careful these days, and this guy had all the earmarks of the next "big shooting spree."

    While supressing art and creativity is wrong, sometimes you have to make a decision on the risks involved. Maybe he was just an idiot that accidentally brought his guns to school and his creative writing was interpretted incorrectly. But maybe not. We'll never know now.

    But think of this. If he had gone on a shooting spree, how many of us would have pointed to his writings as a warning sign of mental instability that the school missed?

    EDIT: I do think they went too far with his punishment by having him committed. Maybe an evaluation was in order. But the school had every right to expel him for bringing guns on campus. This guy did break their rules.

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    Senior Member Array jofrdo's Avatar
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    The teacher was rightfully concerned over the writing assignment. The student may be a little crazy to pull a stunt like that. Once the school knew about the guns on campus, I think the expulsion would have to be expected. The student's appeal of the expulsion will go nowhere; he's outta there. And he'll never be admitted to any other college either.

    If I had been the student, I would not have consented to a search of my person, my bookbag or my car and I would not have admitted to the guns in my car. Let them try to get a search warrant; they're not law enforcement, just campus security. Do they have police powers? Could they hold him against his will? Why didn't he just walk to his car and drive home? And who involuntarily committed him to a mental clinic? The article doesn't say a court did, but rather the chief of campus police! I don't think he has authority to do that.

    Then the Commonwealth's Attorney starts the process to revoke his permit when he has broken no Virginia laws!

    It all sounds like a lot of people with power going to their heads and a student without an ounce of sense.

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    Va; not WV

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    Not familiar with WV law...he stated it was not against the law in WV to have a gun on school grounds...only a school policy...true?
    This happened at the UVa campus at Wise Va.

    Virginia "sort of" allows guns on college campuses -- maybe.


    Most "Public" colleges, such as VT are non-restricted by State Law, but are Unarmed Victim Zones for students & employees -- by contract that only applies to the parties of that contract. That is, to attend / be employed you sign away your rights.

    I, as a non-student/employee, can carry on these campuses. I can and do use the public access facilities of VT armed. I was under the impression that UVa was the same, as this story seems to confirm.

    There is one Public College that I know of, where guns are prohibited by law --Virginia Commonwealth University.

    Some Public colleges (especially community colleges in rural areas), allow students & employees to carry. My local community college does. I attended a continuing education class there where the prof and about a quarter of the class was armed.

    OTOH, "Private" colleges, like any private property, can set their own policy for everyone entering their property. [18.2-308 (O.): The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.]

    Unlike some other States, Virginia law is silent of the nature and specific content required for notice, signs, etc needed to post an Unarmed Victim Zone on private property.

    Many, but not all, "Private" colleges are Unarmed Victim Zones for everyone.

    Now is everyone confused?
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    Last edited by DaveH; March 9th, 2008 at 07:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    they're not law enforcement, just campus security. Do they have police powers? Could they hold him against his will?
    At VT and UVa they are a full blown PD with sworn police officers certified by the Commonwealth of Virginia.

    See The University of Virginia's College at Wise
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    And who involuntarily committed him to a mental clinic? The article doesn't say a court did, but rather the chief of campus police! I don't think he has authority to do that.
    It is a broken process, but yes he plays a part as current law works. It does take a magistrate. But the LEO has the first judgement role and can detain you for evaluation (I think for four hours) w/o any criminal issues. It is a civil matter. See my earlier post on the new bill we are pushing.

    To move it off the campus issue for another example:

    Someone calls LO and says you are a danger to yourself, or others. A LEO is dispatched and makes the initial judgement. If the LEO judges you to be a danger, you are unarmed, detained, and taken to a medical facility. Next the Doctors, Magistrates, etc get involved. A quick initial "Professional" judgement is made and you can the be held for days for "evaluation", or released as no danger. Then after an indepth evaluation, you are either released (as no danger) or committed for "Treatment."

    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    Then the Commonwealth's Attorney starts the process to revoke his permit when he has broken no Virginia laws!
    It is not a matter of criminal action.

    His CHP can be revoked if the court "finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others."

    His guns can be seized "for his own protection."

    To make it worse, the process to reverse all that is very weak and fuzzy in the current law -- even if you are found to be "no danger" early in the process.

    The bill I posted about earlier, (HB 815 see: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...81+ful+HB815H3) in the works that makes sense. Let hope it passes and Kaine signs it.

    This bill improves current law by allowing for restoration of rights, and requires better due process before rights are lost. See: 1.B. of HB 815. For example, under the new bill the lose of rights would not happen until after the "evaluation" not just because you are detained, or involuntary committed for evaluation. Under the new bill the court needs to order that the defendant receive treatment to restore his competency (not just detained for evaluated) before the loss of rights. Also, the restoration of rights process is spelled out and it is appeal-able -- with de nova hearings.

    Wish us luck. We need it!
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    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

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