The ''borderline'' BG

The ''borderline'' BG

This is a discussion on The ''borderline'' BG within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Overall I think we all would treat the presentation of a gun by a BG as a threat we need to deal with - probably ...

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Thread: The ''borderline'' BG

  1. #1
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    The ''borderline'' BG

    Overall I think we all would treat the presentation of a gun by a BG as a threat we need to deal with - probably thru extreme prejudice!

    I am aware tho - thinking back over numerous cases - how many times ''punk'' type BG's actually are not the shooting type - they walk into a 7/11 and just hope their gun will scare the heck outa folks so they get what they want. They may even have a repro' or ''look-alike'' to create effect.

    For me - I am not interested in trying to decide whether a gun is real or a clone BB. What these guys need to realize is that folks are out there (like us) who have the means to protect ourselves and who are unlikely to want to take the time to evaluate a threat to the 'nth degree.

    So what am I rambling about - this time?

    Just musing I guess on how any prospective BG should be well aware that if they appear to have a gun then - game on!!! Even if outcome is tragic. Same if they come into contact with cops - perceived gun = real gun and ''bang''.

    Bottom line, crime does not pay and there is an armed populace out there in places... as well as cops. I still as ever hope not to be in such a situation - that goes without saying!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


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    Member Array joe/OH's Avatar
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    I wish I had your conviction, but if I know the guy isn't serious, I wouldn't kill him. I agree with everything you said - but it comes down to a selfish thing for me. Even though you won't have to worry much about criminal charges, our legal system being what it is, there will be the civil suits - even if it is from his long lost cousin's brouther's roomate's uncle's sister. And I will be paying a lot for a good defense lawyer.

    I keep a 'fake' wallet in my pants pocket with 5 bucks and some dummy credit cards. Toss it to him and back away. If he wants more - then let fly. Again, this is assuming I'm reasonably certain he is just a punk kid and not really going to pull that trigger. I'm sure most folks will probably disagree - but I'm trying to answer as honestly as possible.

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    Not sure Joe it is my conviction per se - more the fact that hesitation in the (potential) line of fire could be lethal - that is the concern.

    I expect there are a good many cases where someone thought "it ain't real" and waited too long - and became dog meat.

    I am in principle after any and all ways that could ''defuze'' and allow for a good outcome but - something tells me the luxury of decision-making time may not always be there.

    I do NOT want to shoot anyone but I DO want to survive an ''incident''.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    My mindset is to win. Of all the tools for that purpose, I consider my firearm to be the last resort. That said, I'm not going to hesitate when it comes to staying on the high side of the force escalator. When you make the prior decision and train to prevail at all cost, you reasonably feel you or another is at imminent risk of great bodily harm or death, and it is necessary to use deadly force to prevent it, you must not dither. I will not allow the fear of civil suit to flinch my resolve. A life saved is more precious than a period of tribulation.

    A student trains until he gets it right, the master till he can't get it wrong.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    If you don't believe your life is in danger... "he's just a punk kid and not really going to pull the trigger"... why are you shooting him? To protect your "real" wallet? That's no reason to kill someone. The fact he has a gun out may mean you don't get prosecuted, but if in your mind you really truely think you're safe then you've just shot someone for no reason.

    If you DON'T really think you're safe, then you've waited too long.

    No disrespect, but you're not making any sense at all.

    You have to go thru the steps of recognizing when a potential threat becomes a real threat. Waiting until he has his gun pointed at you and you've thrown your "fake" wallet at him is not the time to react. I certainly wouldn't want to draw against a "punk kid", or even grandma Smitty, who already had me covered.

    Anytime anybody threatens you with anything resembling deadly force you must react decisively, and you must learn to recognize it before your opponent has an unrecoverable advantage over you.

    In short there is no "borderline" badguy, only potential threats and targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by joe/OH
    I keep a 'fake' wallet in my pants pocket with 5 bucks and some dummy credit cards. Toss it to him and back away. If he wants more - then let fly. Again, this is assuming I'm reasonably certain he is just a punk kid and not really going to pull that trigger. I'm sure most folks will probably disagree - but I'm trying to answer as honestly as possible.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

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    Sorry P95 but I am not a mind reader. If I see a BG waving a gun, I will not sit and try to deduce if it is fake or real or poll the SOB about his intentions. I may have 2 options available: 1) If I have an easy way to avoid the confrontation and flee, I'll take it. 2) If I don't have a way out, my life is in danger and so is his.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    Sorry P95 but I am not a mind reader. If I see a BG waving a gun, I will not sit and try to deduce if it is fake or real or poll the SOB about his intentions. I may have 2 options available: 1) If I have an easy way to avoid the confrontation and flee, I'll take it. 2) If I don't have a way out, my life is in danger and so is his.
    Very well put, my sentiments exactly.
    Many people have been assaulted/stabbed/shot/whatever because they either failed to take the situation seriously enough (like that girl in NY a while back that cussed out the mugger and got shot for her trouble), or because they slip into the "this can't be happening to me" mentality.

    You don't know what the person's background is. He may be just a punk kid trying to come up with enough $$$ for some dope and doesn't want to shoot/stab you, or he may be a 2-striker that's going to whack you despite his assurances to the contrary so there won't be a witness. The fact that we can't know for sure means that we have to assume the worst.
    Last edited by KenpoTex; September 16th, 2005 at 05:06 AM. Reason: cause I can't spell at 4 in the morning
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

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    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    I'm not a mental health professional. I'm not a LEO. I'm not a preacher,priest,or rabbi. I do not,carry a fake wallet with fake money. I do not carry a fake gun in order to try to BS someone that I feel might be trying to BS me. I have a set of rules that I go by. For the most part they are society's rules. If the threat crosses the line that I have drawn in the sand he/she should be in fear of their life. I do not know what all toy guns and knives look like. I (for the most part) can't tell if a gun is loaded if it is pointed,displayed,or waved at me(especially if it is held sideways). I am not a anthropoligist. How old is the BG? Who cares! I'm not a trained social worker. Did the BG come from a "deprived" family? Did his parents abuse him as a child? What is his IQ? Is the "devil" making him try to harm me? What will his survivors lawyer try to do to me at the trial? -- If the BG has crossed MY line that I have drawn in the sand,I will kill him/her! It will be my feeling that they(the BG) killed themselves by trying to harm me. As in a bank,I will not just hand you my money because you have asked for it. I will request that you show me proof that you have a weapon,the means to do me harm. If you provide me with the proof that I need to kill you then you will die. Those of you here that will try to come up with a reason not to protect yourselves will be a vic. The POS/BG will just go find another person to harm. Did the two BG's that Tom Cruise shot in the movie "Colateral" need to die for "just" taking his briefcase then pointing a gun looking object at him? I say YES !! -------

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    Smile What if

    We go through a lot of scenarios here of what if and what would you do if..., all of which is good. It helps a person to be prepared if you try to think through what you might do, in advance. It becomes a problem when you think too much. If you worry about liability, or whether the BG will actually shoot, then you hesitate and possibly get yourself killed. The bottom line is, "Are you in fear for your life". If the answer is yes then you have to defend yourself. There are no second chances.
    Will you be sued. Not if you live in Florida, but elsewhere, possibly. Remember you can't be sued if you're dead. If the BG is carrying a gun then you have to assume he is going to use it.
    Just out of curiosity, what do you have to do around here to be promoted from junior member to member?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hask12
    Just out of curiosity, what do you have to do around here to be promoted from junior member to member?
    You must send each mod a money order for $20. J/K you have to get 50 posts then your a regular member. I don't know how many gets you senior member as I haven't got that high yet.

    Loike everyone else said, if he's got a gun (real or fake) and Its pointing at me theres going to be a bad outcome for one of us that day. If it is on his body and he is just showing, I would try to turn, run and find cover, once there(or on the way there)I would have my piece out and ready so if he decided hes going to give chase things are going to end bad that day also. Its realy hard to tell what exactly you will do in a situation until your there, all you can do is train for the worst and hope for the best.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    I do the fake wallet thing myself when laws dictate I cannot dedicate the pocket space to something more useful, like my .38. I've actually got a very convincing looking fake wallet with nothing of value in it at all. I have it stuffed full of paper, a fake ID card that says I'm John Wayne, and expired gift cards and 2 fake credit cards I got as junk mail with fictional names on them.

    However, that's just another tool people use when they can't do something better. Ever since I've gotten my carry permit I haven't had to stoop to the fake wallet, but if I ever travel somewhere far enough away I'll be taking it with me.

    The only reason I even bother is that I consider anyone who would threaten me with lethal force or implied lethal force to be dead serious. If someone threatens me thus they clearly want to kill me or else they would not do it at all. The fake wallet is a ruse because if I'm not allowed to have any tools with which to counter this situation, I have to resort to far less effective tactics.

    Incidentally this is the exact same reason I like pocket carry so much. You could be pretending to go for a wallet, holding up the other hand and saying "Okay... okay man I'm getting it out..." By the time you shot him he wouldn't know what had happened.

    Sorry, but I'll say it again, if someone's pointing a weapon at me they want to kill me. They have no right, no right at all. The thought of anyone doing that to me just makes me so darn mad I can't see straight. I shouldn't have to put up with it and I won't.

    The fake wallet ruse is something you have to resort to when your government coddles criminals.

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    Thx folks - I think we are a pretty dedicated bunch.

    Just wish BG's would realize there are those of us around and back off but hey - there'll always be wolves and idiots - just need to keep the sheep-dog count high, tho for a significant proportion of the criminal world it always seems deterrance has little effect.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Several have posted that they consider a BG who has a weapon ot and pointed at them to be a threat. True, but IMO if you wait tat long to ID them as a threat you're too far behind the power curve o catch up. The BG would have to be distracted or have some other circumstance change the situation.

    Hopefully situational awareness will let you ID the potential threat, and then recognize when it changes to an actual threat/ target, before the BG actually has the drop on you.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

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    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    I agree with the thought that if I am in fear for my life or the lives of family/friends, the gun is being drawn and fired until the threat goes away.

    If the BG flashes a weapon and I can see it is a squirt gun, he might get his ass whupped. If the BG flashes a real weapon but does not draw, he is stupid and I will draw and start the shoot/don't shoot decision loop.

    I don't carry a fake wallet, but in case I get caught unawares, I do carry a money clip with a $20 bill on the outside to throw short, high, long, low, left, right, anywhere but to the BG's hands, so he/she has to track a moving object, I don't have to get any closer than when I start the encounter, and I might generate enough of a distraction to stop being just a stationary target.

  15. #15
    Member Array joe/OH's Avatar
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    Sorry I didn't make sense. All I was trying to say was that if I was reasonably sure that I wasn't in danger, I would try to resolve the conflict without shooting. Yes he has a gun. Yes he is threatening (bluffing) me. But if you can sacrifice 20 bucks to get out of the situation, it will cost you less in the long run.

    But I've honestly never been in the situation, so I really have no idea if you could know. I talked to a deputy who had been in that situation several times, and he told me that you'll know when you have to shoot when the time comes. There will be no question. That has been his experience at least.

    Joe

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