What would prompt show of force? - Page 2

What would prompt show of force?

This is a discussion on What would prompt show of force? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; plenty of good reading on use of force in this and other threads: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ngagement.html I think as a general rule, you should not draw or ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    plenty of good reading on use of force in this and other threads:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ngagement.html
    I think as a general rule, you should not draw or show your handgun unless the situation meets the use of deadly force.

    Remember good situational awareness and conflict resolution skills are far more useful than any pistol.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Welcome to the board Gibson!

    As to your question and wonders take a look at the following thread I'd posted in this area last fall which in detail addresses your query directly.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ard-times.html

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    You definitely want to take notes when they cover this in your class. Also you need to remember that the laws differ from state to state and when you are traveling what might be ok at home can get you twenty years across the state line.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  4. #19
    Member Array Hubs's Avatar
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    South Carolina has 'Castle Doctrine" as well. All of the above situations can be applied; however, my instructor made a strong point of this scenario: an intruder can be in your home, but make sure that the intruder is not a child or a teenager before shooting. As he said succintly: "God Forbid!" His reasoning: children/teenagers don't always know right/wrong and in court the shooter will be found guilty by a jury.

    Good luck with the class and ask as many questions as needed. I can assure you that a great deal of the info will be related to legalities.

  5. #20
    Member Array apierce918's Avatar
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    the officer in my class was very cautious about ever really giving an OK for someone's scenario they asked about, because it all is so circumstantial at that moment! but like Janq said with the three rules, thats what he kept saying, think of those 3 things as a 3 legged barstool, if the barstool can stand in the criminal situation, you should be ok in terms with the law if you draw your weapon.

    like Thoth8, he was in a parking lot at night alone, thats Opportunity, he was outnumbered, thats Ability, and their sharp turn out of the ordinary towards his direction can be deemed as Intent. so his subtle showing seemed ok.

  6. #21
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    You will definately need to know what the law says for your state specifically. For example...

    In my state, it is not illegal for you to "arm yourself" however the law is ambiguous regarding exactly what that means. Clearly, "arming yourself" is different than "brandishing".

    To be charged with "brandishing" the complainant needs a witness to the act, one person's word against another isn't enough by itself.

    So, hypothetically, if two BG's stick to the same story and say you pointed your weapon at them in a threatening manner when all you actually did is "arm yourself" you're in deep doo doo!
    If anyone ever complains about you for drawing your weapon, they WILL ALWAYS say you pointed it at them... GUARANTEED!

    So for me, it's a no brainer... my weapon stays concealed until it's really needed.

    Get to know your state laws as well as you can.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  7. #22
    Member Array johnstuf's Avatar
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    That was very smart of their part and lucky for you!

    Safe and sane shooting everyone,

    johnstuf

  8. #23
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
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    The law tells us when not to draw. It cannot (and we should not expect it to) tell us when to draw.

    outside my house, it will be the threat of death, not legal reasoning, which brings out my weapon.

    I ain't a cop or a lawyer, so I leave it to them to know when to arrest and prosecute me or anyone else. If it's jail or the morgue, send me to jail.

    inside my house is a different story. Castle doctrine says I don't have to consider whether the threat is legal. So I won't. Somebody comes in uninvited, I shoot first, call 911 second, pray third, and exercise my right to remain silent thereafter.

  9. #24
    Member Array Dusty Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Basically you draw to fire but the threat of a gun negated the need to fire.
    In the PRC that's "brandishing a weapon" and yer screwed!! If you pull it your life MUST be in danger and therefore you better pull the trigger or YOU are a criminal. Stupid law.

  10. #25
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    I'm not out to intimidate anyone, and don't belive in giving warnings. I won't draw a weapon till I've decided to use it. Drawing without firing, is called hesitation. If the gun leaves the holster, a bullet should leave the muzzle. I don't want anyone to know I'm armed, till they see muzzle flash.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDBraddy View Post
    I'm not out to intimidate anyone, and don't belive in giving warnings. I won't draw a weapon till I've decided to use it. Drawing without firing, is called hesitation. If the gun leaves the holster, a bullet should leave the muzzle. I don't want anyone to know I'm armed, till they see muzzle flash.
    So if you draw and the BG turns and runs you are going to shoot him in the Back?

    If you are in fear of your life and draw your weapon and the mere sight of the weapon stops the threat then you do not need to fire.

    Take with a big lump of salt all those who say that if you "Draw your sword it must draw blood." It will get you in big trouble with a DA.

    If you draw your weapon call 911 as soon as you are able too and report it whether you have fired or not.

    You use your weapon to Stop the Threat if you must fire to stop the threat then fire, but you don't always have to fire your weapon to use it to Stop the Threat
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    If you draw your weapon call 911 as soon as you are able too and report it whether you have fired or not.
    That's SO important! For some reason the first one to call 911 is considered to be the victim.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    As others have said, it varies by state. In Oregon, ORS 163, 164 and 166 describe the legal requirements for the carrying and use of weapons and the use of force in self-defense. As with many places, Oregon requires the state to prove its case against you in a garden-variety criminal case, but you're on the hook to prove yourself if you claim an "affirmative" defense of the justifiable use of lethal force. That, in itself, suggests you'd better be pretty darned sure before going that route.

    I also have a disability that means I cannot withstand a long struggle. While I am strong and vicious in the short-run, I will lose out in time, or against multiple attackers. My state recognizes a disparity of force, thankfully.

    My state also rationally distinguishes between drawing and firing, nicely. It IS different. One is preparation for the use of force, while the other is the actual use of force.

    About the most-conservative read is from Massad Ayoob, who suggests that justified use of lethal force requires that the innocent be in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm. That works just about everywhere, except where you're faced with a dishonorable prosecutor/DA and judge on the take. Short of that, these requirements pretty much assure that a reasonable person should be acting in much the same way if faced with the same situation.

    Where do I draw the line? Every situation is different. If someone places a hand on me, it depends what the context is, and what the apparent intent is. I might well see the need to explosively reject the advance as a violent attack if the placing of a hand on me is done along with words to the effect of "comply or die." If words or actions of any kind dictate that I've only got a few moments to survive before I'm in the crosshairs, I will defend to the degree required. I will use the degree of force I believe required to stop the attack against me or mine, and I will hope that my knowledge of the law's allowances will end up covering those actions as justifiable. I will not allow either myself or my loved ones to be harmed by violence, if I'm able to prevent it, even if that involves the killing of one or more attackers to ensure that result.

    For the principles of Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, click on the "Justifiable Self Defense" link below.

    What specific action I take will absolutely depend on whether I sense actual risk to my life and limb, whether the words/actions of the attacker are clear enough to have no other meaning and justify the urgency, and (to a degree) whether others (witnesses or "reasonable man" standard) would also see it that way.

    In short, anything likely to end up with a deadly or crippling harm to me or mine will justify my absolute refusal of the attack, as quickly as I'm able to refuse it. If that involves a physical struggle only, great; weapons, fine; deadly force, so be it.

    I interpret the law as allowing me leeway to decide when preparing for defense (via drawing) is allowable, though it is fairly specific about when taking violent action in my own defense is allowable.

    Essentially, if I'm in reasonable and justifiable fear of harm, that's it. Before then, circumstances depending, I may well take steps to be better prepared against the chance it may require the actual use of such force. For example, I may try changing direction, heading to cover, withdrawing (if time/space allows), or drawing my firearm early and discreetly holding it at bay until needed (if the impending violence is apparent enough). Everything depends on the circumstances.

    Definitely, come to know your state's laws intimately. Speak with an attorney who is competent to provide practical advice in these specific areas. Speak with your local DA/prosecutor. Get as much varied training from top names as you can afford. Read, read, read. Think through the situations where you would take certain actions. Decide NOW whether you would be seen by a jury of peers as justified in your actions under certain circumstances, because, when it blows sideways right in front of you, you will not have time at that moment to futz around with the concept. It's entirely possibe that, at that moment, you won't be given much (if any) time to make your decision.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  14. #29
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    As others have stated, your laws and such *should* give you reasonable limits as to what is expected under self-defense. Your CCW class *should* go into some detail as to what the state's expectations are regarding the law and what your responsibilities are under that permit. I just finished a very good NRA class a couple weeks ago and the instructor gave us a phrase to remember when thinking about the use of deadly force.

    "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of serious/crippling bodily injury or death"

    IF the jeopardy of the situation is such that you can justify your perception of the above statement, than you have a right to honor that jeopardy with a response.
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubs View Post
    South Carolina has 'Castle Doctrine" as well. All of the above situations can be applied; however, my instructor made a strong point of this scenario: an intruder can be in your home, but make sure that the intruder is not a child or a teenager before shooting. As he said succintly: "God Forbid!" His reasoning: children/teenagers don't always know right/wrong and in court the shooter will be found guilty by a jury.

    Good luck with the class and ask as many questions as needed. I can assure you that a great deal of the info will be related to legalities.
    Kids and teenagers kill people everyday,if he's in my house and he hasn't been taught its illegal to break into a home by then,well he's gonna get a really hard lesson and it's gonna be worse than the whooping his momma should of gave him.And I hate to say it but just because you kill a teenager in your home does not ean you "will" be found guilty,there are many scenarios he may be armed and you defend yourself,also Texas castle doctine has no age limit.

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