What would prompt show of force?

This is a discussion on What would prompt show of force? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Being very new to the shooting sports and scheduled to sit for my CCW permit this Saturday, I feel a little confused about a very ...

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Thread: What would prompt show of force?

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    Member Array gibson3798's Avatar
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    What would prompt show of force?

    Being very new to the shooting sports and scheduled to sit for my CCW permit this Saturday, I feel a little confused about a very important topic. Could some of you offer some instances where you would feel justified, and within the law (the hard part it seems), to draw your handgun? Does a threat from someone have to include having a gun stuck in your face to warrant a response? Does showing your weapon in one of these instances automatically open you up for a phoney charge of threatening with a weapon by the other person? I'm interested in your replies.

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    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Every situation is different and every state has differing laws.

    This type of thing should be covered in depth during your CCW class and you should feel free to ask for clarification as necessary. Don't leave with any questions in your mind.

    You're absolutely right. Understanding the laws of your particular state is one of the first responsibilities of a someone who carries a concealed weapon.

    Enjoy your class on Saturday, and congratulations on taking that first step!

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    Generally, in Alabama, drawing can only be justified if you are in fear of your life or to protect someone else from great bodily harm. Basically you draw to fire but the threat of a gun negated the need to fire.

    I think the law in TN is similar.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

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    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    theoretical example; real example

    Quote Originally Posted by gibson3798 View Post
    Could some of you offer some instances where you would feel justified, and within the law (the hard part it seems), to draw your handgun?
    You will learn what the applicable laws are in Tennessee.

    Here in Colorado, a lethal threat may be legally met with lethal force. CO also has a castle doctrine statute which presumes an intruder in your living space is a lethal threat, and if the intruder is killed or injured during the intrusion, he or his survivors cannot sue.

    So a prime example of 100% justified use of lethal force in CO would be that a homeowner shoots an intruder. Multiple reports of these occurrences in the news here has demostrated that the law has been applied correctly and the home owner/shooter has not been charged.

    I am aware of only one major on-the-street shooting by a person with a CC permit here since the shall-issue law passed in 2003. Google "Glen Eichstedt" for further details, but the essence was that a couple and he parked next to each other at a video store not far from my house. A door-ding argument escalated into the other guy whacking Eichstedt with a pipe, and the woman pushing him. Two .38 special bullets through each attacker ended the disagreement---the man was killed, the woman survived. Eichstedt was not arrested, not immediately charged by the DA, and 6 months later was no-billed by a grand jury.

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    Member Array Magilla82ABN's Avatar
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    According to Michies Legal Resource on the TN Constitution
    This is not the enitre text

    39-11-611. Self-defense. —


    (a) As used in this section, unless the context otherwise requires:

    (1) “Curtilage” means the area surrounding a dwelling that is necessary, convenient and habitually used for family purposes and for those activities associated with the sanctity of a person's home;

    (2) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, that has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed for or capable of use by people;

    (3) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides, either temporarily or permanently, or is visiting as an invited guest, or any dwelling, building or other appurtenance within the curtilage of the residence; and

    (4) “Vehicle” means any motororized vehicle that is self-propelled and designed for use on public highways to transport people or property.


    (b) (1) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force against another person when and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

    (2) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if:

    (A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

    (B) The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

    (C) The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.


    [Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1030, § 8; 2007, ch. 210, § 1.]
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    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Use of lethal force will likely vary greatly from state to state. A good example is Castle Doctrine. Not every state has a similar 'law' on the books. Even those that do will have differences from state to state. As others have said, your CCW should (it BETTER!) cover legal use of force for your state.

    For example, if someone (non-LEO...FL statute specifies this, I believe) is trying to break into my house via door, window, wall, what have you, according to FL law, I can presume that the person doing so does not have the best of intentions for me. Thus, fearing for my life, and the life of my family, I can justifiably use lethal force to terminate the threat. I believe this even counts for my car (i.e., carjacking). I'm fairly certain not all states would allow lethal force in this case. It's entirely likely some would require more than a presumption of a threat to you or your family before lethal force is justified. If possible, take a gander at your state statutes regarding use of force, as well as listening to what is offered in the CCW class.

    -JT

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    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    In most of the situations where you would be justified in drawing and perhaps shooting, there will be NO DOUBT that you are justified -- the question will be whether you have what it takes to prevail.

    For example, you hear really loud bumps, then your front door shatters and 2 monstrous dudes pop in, one holding a handgun. Right when you hear the door being bashed in, you need to draw and be ready.

    Situational awareness is the key, though. In your home is one thing; outside your home you need to be really watchful with your head on a swivel. Otherwise you may not see it coming, which can make your gun largely irrelevant. If you are watchful and pay attention to your "spidey sense", you can often ward off attacks without even drawing. But always be ready to draw.

    In most (all?) states, you must fear for your life before you can legally shoot someone. When all is said and done, that is the final word.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

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    Member Array gg12's Avatar
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    possible scenarios

    1. defending my children from an armed someone attempting or threatening to hurt them.

    2. defending myself from an armed someone attempting to go through me to get to my children.

    armed = weapon, intoxicated or high and clearly out of control, bigger or meaner than me, armed does not necessarily mean with a gun

    What is vital to consider when you think of these things is what are you worth financially and where are your morals/religious leanings? Legal defense and guilt can make surviving a shootout a living hell.

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    Member Array cheapthrills's Avatar
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    I trust my gut. I will not show my weapon until the hair on the back of my neck stands up.Its only happended once and the other guy wasnt telling anybody he just backed off then ran.I felt like I was gonna be sick once it was over because I knew I was only a fraction of a second from taking a life. I never thought about if it was justified or not I just did what I had to do at that moment. The person I was with kept saying "I would have shot him" But im glad I didnt have to.

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    New Member Array Thoth8's Avatar
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    Last night at WalMart I was loading some stuff in to the back of my truck. About 3 black males 20-30 years old took a sharp turn coming my way. They looked like thugs to me. My daily carry is a s&w 642 ( 2" revolver ) They were focused on me. So i simply moved it form my front pocket of my pants to the pocket of my jacket. When they saw this they stopped in their tracks and turned around. I did not have to say a thing.

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    If a gun is “stuck in your face” it is probably too late. It is estimated that up to 2.5 million times a year a gun is “displayed” but not drawn and that is enough to ward off a potential attack. Most of these are not even reported. You should learn situational awareness and avoidance techniques which will help you keep from ever having to worry about drawing a gun in self-defense. If you don’t, take another course you are not getting your moneys worth. Situations like the one Thoth8 described are common, I know several people that this has happened to.
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    Member Array Daps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gibson3798 View Post
    Being very new to the shooting sports and scheduled to sit for my CCW permit this Saturday, I feel a little confused about a very important topic. Could some of you offer some instances where you would feel justified, and within the law (the hard part it seems), to draw your handgun? Does a threat from someone have to include having a gun stuck in your face to warrant a response? Does showing your weapon in one of these instances automatically open you up for a phoney charge of threatening with a weapon by the other person? I'm interested in your replies.
    Reasonable fear for your life or grave bodily harm....If you have a gun stuck in your face it's a little to late to worry about drawing

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    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    Daps and havegunjoe, you both say it's too late to defend yourself if a gun is in your face.

    So are you going to assume someone pointing a gun at you is going to kill you, or are you going to assume someone pointing a gun at you is not going to kill you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    Daps and havegunjoe, you both say it's too late to defend yourself if a gun is in your face.

    So are you going to assume someone pointing a gun at you is going to kill you, or are you going to assume someone pointing a gun at you is not going to kill you?
    I interpret their comments as this....a gun in your face is too late to decide if a threat is warranted and draw your gun to defeat that threat, situational awareness is key here

    IMO, if a gun is stuck your face you have two options: let him shoot you or do whatever it takes to survive, I for one would get that muzzle away from my head and attempt to remove his trachea and/or eyeballs with my other hand followed up by whatever else is necessary
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    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoth8 View Post
    Last night at WalMart I was loading some stuff in to the back of my truck. About 3 black males 20-30 years old took a sharp turn coming my way. They looked like thugs to me. My daily carry is a s&w 642 ( 2" revolver ) They were focused on me. So i simply moved it form my front pocket of my pants to the pocket of my jacket. When they saw this they stopped in their tracks and turned around. I did not have to say a thing.
    Did you report them to the cops?
    You should do that for your own protection; what if they called the cops and said you pulled a gun on them as they were "minding their own business"? You need to get your side in first.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

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